Protections/Dispellers

[angryguy]

Ok, whenever i play through i keep wondering a few things;
what spells dispel what protections,
what dispellers are any good
what chance they have of working
etc.
I have read in game descriptions but they are not so helpful as i'd like, lists of effects are not as good as general ideas, to me. Anyone think they can help?

[Splunge]

This might help.

There's a section on protections.

Edit: @ Drumheller (below) - you're welcome, but I can't take credit for it; I found it only because Earl Grey provided the link in a previous post.

[ September 12, 2004, 00:01: Message edited by: Splunge ]

[Drumheller]

Great resource there, thanks for the link Splunge.

[Eric Xanthus]

Warning: longish post

Those charts are very useful, but I think chiz65 wants something other than x counters y. He wants an evaluation of the various spells. So...

Use breach to remove anything that keeps your weapons from hurting your enemy. Breach also gets rid of fire shield, which can be helpful. Best of all, Breach goes right through Spell Trap and the spell deflections (which makes Spell Trap pretty worthless if you ask me). On the flip side, for defending, you shouldn't bother with Mantle, Improved Mantle, or Absolute Immunity--Protection from Magical Weapons works better in almost every case.

I rarely use elemental defenses, but they can come in handy in specific situations where you are underpowered compared to, say, that big red dragon. If for some reason you needed to dispel an elemental protection (I can't think of one right now), use Breach.

When it comes to spell defenses, now we're talking about 'dueling' (at least that's how I think of it). For practical game play, only one spell is going to mess you up, and that is Spell Shield (it blocks your Breach). Spell Shield gets dispelled by most of the spell piercers in the game, though. All other spell defenses can be circumvented with either weapons or area-affect spells.

But if you really want to 'duel' with your sorcerer or whatever, here's a primer:

Spell deflections are rarely worth the effort, easy to get around, and easily replaced with correct use of Spell Immunity. To get rid of spell protections, use Pierce Magic/Khelben's Whip (for lower level protections) or Ruby Ray of Reversal/Pierce Shield(for any level of protection). Spellstrike is the grand master of dispelling, but totally wasted if your enemy has a Spell Shield up--use something else to get rid of the spell shield first. You will not need to use Spellstrike very often anyway, as most enemies don't put up multiple spell defenses simultaneously. Only use Spell Trap when you know you face an enemy that will use direct target (not area affect) damage spells.

Hmmm...lots more to say, but already said more than enough. You'll figure out the rest.

[Truper]

One other tip that someone on these boards was kind enough to impart to me is worth passing on: Ruby Ray of Reversal is the only "dispelling" type spell that isn't an Abjuration. Very useful if an enemy casts Spell Immunity: Abjuration on top of other spell protections.

[Eric Xanthus]

Yeah, that is a good one to know. I should have found space for that. Another good one to know is that secret word can be a darn handy spell if you take on someone like Lavok early in the game.

[Drumheller]

Secret Word is a great sacrifice spell when you see that your target has a Spell Shield up. Follow it up with a Ruby Ray and/or Breach. Spellstrike is nice but not worth a 9th level slot IMHO.

[Faraaz]

Just read the manual mate. You should be able to figure it out from there. There's quite a few nifty spells in there, which we might not remember, but you might find useful given certain unpredictable situations.

[angryguy]

No manual, sorry (no, the game is NOT stolen). Thanks a lot for that eric X.

Just to clarify, when spell shield blocks breach, do they BOTH fizzle or does the spell shield remain?

And one other thing- what 3 protections or so does everyone like to use? not including the obvious stoneskin, that is.

[Eric Xanthus]

The spell shield cancels out with the breach (or whatever spell hits it), so the next spell will work. If the spell shield remained, that would be one hell of a fifth level spell.

The protections I use depend on the situation. If my fighter/mage is one on one with a melee monster, I use something like stoneskin/blur/mirror image. If I'm getting rushed by several attackers, protection from magic weapons is best (all the attacks will eat through your stoneskin/mirror image too quickly).

For spell defense, Spell Immunity is by far my favorite. If I use spell deflection/turning or spell trap, it is to fulfill a character concept, not to have maximum efficiency.

[Ziad]

Chiz65, the manual should be on one of the CDs, even if you have a jewel case version of the game.

Best protections: Mirror Image, Blur and Stoneskin at lower levels. Improved Invisbility is amazingly powerful in its "corrected" version (+4 to AC, +4 to ALL saving throws). At higer levels, Prot from Magical Weapons will practically make you immune to physical attacks for 4 rounds (it's much better than the level 9 Absolute Immunity, IMO).

Barkskin and Ironskin combination for druids is also really good. Ironskin works exactly like Stoneskin.

Spell Immunity is very good if you know exactly which spells you want to protect against. I prefer to use Spell Trap for more general spell protection (Staff of Magi has a very nice Spell Trap 1/day built in)

[Eric Xanthus]

Spell Trap is nice but too easily circumvented for my tastes. It would be totally worthless if enemy AI was on par with player strategy (of course I realize that it is not), since it would never work against an area affect spell. Perhaps worst of all, as I've mentioned elsewhere, it does not stop Breach.

Spell Trap does have its uses, though. It is great against Power Words and Finger of Death. It also works well when your Spell Trapped character is on lead and will be the target of area affect spells like the Symbols and ADHW. The best use of Spell Trap is when soloing, since you'll be the only target for spells, and you get to restock your spells.

[Michael Mouse]

I realise this is a real newbie question but I have never worked out how to dispel Confusion. It seems to be taken for granted here but I have tried various spells and none seem to work. It is really annoying having one of your own party start wading into you with no alternative but to run away from them!

[Eric Xanthus]

Confusion is such a pain because you can only get rid of it with dispel magic, and dispel magic works on a % success, not an automatic one. If the mage who cast confusion on you is more powerful than your dispeller, you are pretty much out of luck. This is one of the many things that makes Keldorn helpful (his dispel is double-strength).

Confusion is best solved with preventative spells or items, but that is not a very effecient way to protect your whole party. So Confusion ends up being one of the more irritating spells out there--and of course it is always far, far more effective when the enemy uses it on me than when I use it on the enemy. Grrr...

[Faraaz]

@Eric: I think you've got the Dispel Magic mechanics the wrong way around. The percentage chance for dispelling magical protections and status effects applies only when you're doing it to a hostile character.

Casting Dispel Magic on friendly-characters AUTOMATICALLY dispels ALL statuses, beneficial or not.

@Michael: Dispel Magic is your one stop solution for all status effect problems...except Maze/Imprisonment and Level Drain of course.

[Ziad]

Farraz, I think you've got the Dispel mechanics wrong too I've had many situation where I tried to dispel stuff off my NPCs and it wouldn't work. I think the % chance is between the caster and the recipient (in this case, the NPC). Not sure if this is how the spell should work, but to me it definitely looked as if this is how the game makes it work.

Eric Xanthus, the best use of Spell Trap that I have found is against Demiliches. It's one of the few things that protect against Demilich Imprisonment. I'm not sure Spell Immunity does... It's also the best way to keep my mages alive against enemies like Irenicus, who love to target them directly with things like Kill and Horrid Wilting and Finger of Death.

[Faraaz]

@Ziad: No idea what you are talking about. I don't think you cast the spell at the characters, in the right area or something, Dispel Magic is an area spell, not character specific spell.

I'm sure the manual will dispel any doubts on the subject. But I don't have it handy. Any one else know where I can find a copy online? Or just paste the spell description from the manual here.

Edit: I found a spell description, and I suppose the description doesnt say anything about it being automatic for friendlies...but I'm positive. If you want, you can test it, but I'm a 100% sure on this.

[Aldeth the Foppish Idiot]

@Faraaz and Ziad - it depends on the situation you're talking about. If the status affect was put on you by an enemy's spells, then it is a % chance of success. For example, if you get confusion cast on your party, and Keldorn casts dispel magic, you're probably going to get rid of the confusion on everyone. However, in the same situation, if your multi-classed fighter/mage/theif casts dispel magic (assuming he's a few levels behind everyone else in the party) he may only dispel the effects on half the party members.

Now take a different example. Say you're hit by a ghoul and paralyzed. This is not considered a spell effect, even though it works in a similar way. In this case, ANYONE casting dispel magic will succeed in getting rid of the status effect, whether you're 35th level or 5th level.

@Ziad: Spell Immunity definitely works against the demi-lich's imprisonment. SI + Tenser's Transformation (or Melf's Minute Meteors) or any other assortment of spells that increase you're likelihood of hitting and causing damage = dead demi-lich.

[Faraaz]

@Aldeth: I agree...but if you cast Spell Trap, you'd be getting heaps of spell-levels restored...which would pretty much restore your spells to you...so you would be free to cast time stop again, or Dragon's Breath, or something...if you wanted.

[Truper]

Unfortunately, you can't copy and paste from a PDF, but:

Dispel Magic is an area affect spell.
Its chance of succeeding is determined by the level of the caster, and the level of the magic being dispelled.

But even the manual is inconsistent, since it then comapres the chance of succeeding to the levels of the casters on both sides.

Leaves me with a couple questions: what "level" is say, a Potion of Fire Giant Strength? The level of the mage who concocted it? The level of the affect the potion gives in terms of a comparable spell? The manual does say that you can dispel effects from potions.

The other question is about the inconsistency: I think what it comes down to is that a Confusion cast by a 6th level mage is easier to dispel than the same spell cast by a 10th level mage. The line about "the level of the magic to be dispelled" leaves me in some doubt, though. Can anybody set us completely straight?

And yeah, that double-stregnth dispel of Keldon's makes him the most valuable of the NPCs imo, and why I like leaving him in the Firecam plate for the entire game. The saving throw bonus means he's more likely to shrug off whatever nasty spells are coming the party's way, and be in a position to dispel the effects on those less fortunate. The idea of doing without Keldorn has kept me from trying an evil party so far

[Michael Mouse]

That makes Confusion a double pain because you will presumably dispel all the positive protections on your characters at the same time?!

[Eric Xanthus]

@ Faraaz:
You are in fact mistaken about dispeling "friendlies." It is extremely easy to test, and I did so just so I could make this post with a certainty greater than your "100%". Dispel Magic cast by a lvl 12 mage failed to dispel stoneskin or haste cast by a lvl 31 mage, but succeeded against both when the levels were 12 and 13. Mirror image is always dispeled, but this is due to a bug. Curiously, in a different test, dispel magic failed against stoneskin and haste but succeeded against mirror image. Also curiously, dispel magic always succeeds in dispeling Mislead, but does not dispel any protections on the mislead character.

Other ways to test this yield the same results. Dispelling the stun status from Symbol: Stun can be difficult if not impossible, especially in Tactics mod where the mages are very high level and you can face them at level 10 or less.

@ Truper:
I agree that the manual is written poorly in this regard (as in many others). Dispel Magic compares the level of the two spell casters: the caster of the dispel magic and the caster of the spell being dispeled. The actual level of the spell (confusion being a 4th level spell) is irrelevant. As for the "level" of items, I do not have an answer at my fingertips, but it should be something easily found out.

@ Michael Mouse:
Confusion is indeed a double pain, because if you succeed in dispeling it, you will succeed in dispeling all other protections on the character. Irritating.

Edit: Well shoot. I did not see Aldeth's post when I made mine. Sorry to have repeated anything.

[Advanced Simplicity]

Stoneksin, Mirror image, blur, protection from the elements, protection from magical energy, imp.invisibility, spell immunity: divination, spell immunity: abjuration, fireshield (red/blue), protection from magic weapons.

This is a very powerfull buff you can easily put up in a relative short time, it's almost fool-proof since there's no way to dispel your protections because they can't target you when your half-invisible (except with dispel/remove magic, but spell immunety: abjuration protects against that), spell immunity: divination protecs against all invisibility dispels EXCEPT Glitterdust (which is a conjuration spell IIRC), but how many enemys have you seen use this spell? And you can save against it too.

Now as for dispellers I find breach the ultimate, I don't have the list off all it removes but if you get a breach in you can always hurt your enemy, now the only thing that stop breach is a spell shield (which stops the breach but also removes itself, so just breach again) and more importantly improved.invis, in which case you can either dispel invis then breach or try remove/dispel magic. I most often use this as mages can be pounded to death and still have all the spell protections in the world up, as long as you remove their combat prots it's all over. This is why liches are hard being immune to level 5 spells and down which disables breach leaving you with dispel/remove magic, Keldorn should sucseed most of the time though and weapons that dispel on hit (SoTM, Carsomyr) seems to dispel no mather what as long as you roll a "Hit"

Back to dispel, how is the % calculated?

[Splunge]

Dispel %:

"The base chance of successfully dispelling is 50%. For every level that the caster of the dispel magic is above the original caster, his chance of success increases by 5%. For every level that the caster of dispel magic is below the original caster, his chance of success decreases by 10%.
However, despite the difference in levels, there is always at least a 1% chance of success or failure."

[Ziad]

Err... ok, I'm still trying to figure out how Dispel Magic works. (The nice thing about having Keldorn is that you just cast it and never have to worry about those % calculations)

If I understand what Eric and Aldeth have said, the % calculation occurs against the level of the caster. Therefore, in the case of items (and scrolls I suppose), it's against the fixed caster level implemeted in the item properties (easy to check in IEEP).

As for things like ghoul paralysis, would I be correct in assuming that it gets dispelled every time because the caster level of the effect is extremely low (say, level 1) ?

Since the Infinity Engine has no way of differentiating between "real" spells and effects that work similarly (to the engine, they're all spells), I'm assuming this is how things work.