which class/race has the the best powergaming stat possibilities?

[casey]

One character I had one time, A Cavalier had these stats, after all the tomes (bgI)+ hell trials and WK, and without item bonuses, or other temporary stat upgrades.

str 20
dex 18
con 20
int 13
wis 15
cha 19

This probably looks highly exagerated but it is true. for anyone that doesn't know or can't remember, or are just too lazy to check for them selves.

You can get +1 to all stats in BGI through tomes or in the case of wisdom, +2, or of your evil +3

Good characters in SoA can get a permanent +1 to wis and cha.

in SoA you also have to lose a point somewhere and I chose wis, since int was low enough as it was, and wis was high not important and expendable, and CHA was not an option.

You can also get a +1 at WK in ToB to all stats.

hmmm looking over my stats I feel a bit cheesy for doing all that but I did it legitimetly though.

[ February 06, 2004, 23:09: Message edited by: Taluntain ]

[chevalier]

Elven ranger can have the biggest stats AFAIK. Ranger in itself has a minimum of 60 points. Elven race makes sure some other minimum requirements are met, like intelligence or charisma. Then go all the books and stats increases.

However, it's not enough to have high stats, there's a need for them to be useful. A good-aligned priest may amass 22 wisdom after doing BG1 & ToTSC, Hell Trials and Watcher's Keep. Imagine the bonus spells. Plus, there's STR+2 from the book and Lum's machine. 20 raw strength. The priest could be dual-classed from fighter - in that case CON 20 (the same way as STR) would breed tons of hit points. A similar trick can be done with DEX too, but a good-aligned character loses one DEX point in Hell Trials. This priest would rock in melee.

Oh well, but an evil fighter could amass 23 STR permanent, 20 CON (or more), 20 DEX (19 dwarf, 21 elf/halfling). Killing machine.

It appears a fighter/druid solo would be the one, particular stats depending on choices made on the way, followed by solo ranger/cleric, for those are the most uber of casters.

[Aldeth the Foppish Idiot]

Well, for sheer stat points, you would look at what the theoretical starting level maximums are. If there was a race that had a higher theoretical maximum starting roll, that would be the way to go. However, as far as I know, all characters have a theoretical maximum of 108. (i.e., 18X6). For other races, wherever they get a bonus in one area, they lose it in another. Like dwarves get +1 to con, but get -1 to dex. Half-orcs get +1 to strength and +1 to con, but -2 to int. Based on that, a multi-classed character is probably the way to go, because you guarantee yourself getting higher starting stats, so I'm with chev on this one - an elf or half-elf ranger/cleric seems the way to go.

Note: For ultimate powergaming, get BGTutu which allows races and character in BG2 to be used in BG1. If you made a half-orc fighter (I've never done it, but there's no reason it wouldn't work) you should be able to finish BG1 with a 20 str and con, and a 19 dex. Wow!

[Scythesong Immortal]

Based on experience, classes that rely on more than one ability, like multi-classes.

One important thing I've find out though is the effect of roll minimums - if a class had higher minimum restrictions on an ability, you'd have a higher chance of getting higher stats overall.
(ie, Paladins have high minimum Char and Wis, Bards need high Dex, Char, Int, etc.)
I'm not sure how this happens, but I'm thinking if a Paladin's rolls were distributed such that he was supposed to get 8 Char, this wouldn't happen since his minimum Char is 15(?). So you have 7 more points saved for the other abilities.

This is just a theory though. I only roll stats on an average of 70 times per character.

[Meatdog]

I'm not sure how this happens

Well the explanation is quite simple. First every stat is rolled regardless of min so every stat gets a totally random value between 3 and 18. Then racial modifiers are applied. Now every stat is reset in the following way:

stat = max(rolled_stat, class_stat_minimum)

So in fact if the rolled stat is lower then the minimum requirement you just get some free stat points to get it even with the requirement.

[Klorox]

If you want to get technical, the score between 3 and 18 is NOT totally random. Stats are generated by rolling 3d6, so therefore there is a bell curve on stats, not a random number.

[Meatdog]

That wasn't the point, the point was that the game ups your stats so they meet the requirements after generating them. Now I agree that it should be 3D6 but is anybody sure that's how they implemented it?

[Scythesong Immortal]

@Meatdog
So that leaves the (human) fighter class with the worst powergaming stat possibility, then?

[Meatdog]

Isn't there minimum str9, all the rest 3? If yes, then this is indeed the worse. They can achieve really gigantic stats but the chance is much much smaller then say a Paladin.

[drowling]

Hmm, I don't know about all classes and kits available in BG2, but here's some data regarding Class/Race pairs in BG1 that you might find useful:

Available classes and minimum ability score values                            

Listed below are all available class-race pairs (dual-classing is ignored, of 
course) and the corresponding minimum ability scores, as well as their sum    
(S_m) and their average minumum for an ability score (Avg = S_m / 6). There   
are several tables here, one for each race.                                   

Human:                                                                        
______________________________________________________

 Class               Str Dex Con Int Wis Cha S_m  Avg

 Fighter               9   3   3   3   3   3  24    4
 Ranger               13  13  14   3  14   3  60   10
 Paladin              12   3   9   3  13  17  57  9.5
 Cleric                3   3   3   3   9   3  24    4
 Druid                 3   3   3   3  12  15  39  6.5
 Mage                  3   3   3   9   3   3  24    4
 Thief                 3   9   3   3   3   3  24    4
 Bard                  3  12   3  13   3  15  49 8.16
 Abjurer               3   3   3   9  15   3  36    6
 Conjurer              3   3  15   9   3   3  36    6
 Diviner               3   3   3   9  16   3  37 6.16
 Enchanter             3   3   3   9   3  16  37 6.16
 Illusionist          16   3   3   9   3   3  37 6.16
 Invoker               3  16   3   9   3   3  37 6.16
 Necromancer           3   3   3   9  16   3  37 6.16
 Transmuter            3  15   3   9   3   3  36    6
______________________________________________________

As you can see, with humans, Ranger takes the lead, followed by Paladin and   
Bard. Also note how the 'pureclass quartet' - Fighter, Mage, Cleric and Thief 
- have the lowest values. Do you think the situation will change with elves?  
Let's see...                                                                  

Elf:                                                                          
______________________________________________________

 Class               Str Dex Con Int Wis Cha S_m  Avg

 Fighter               9   7   6   8   3   8  41 6.83
 Ranger               13  12  15   8  14   8  70 11.6
 Cleric                3   7   6   8   9   8  41 6.83
 Mage                  3   7   6   9   3   8  36    6
 Thief                 3   8   6   8   3   8  36    6
 Fighter/Thief         9   8   6   8   3   8  42    7
 Fighter/Mage          9   7   6   9   3   8  42    7
 Mage/Thief            3   8   6   9   3   8  37 6.16
 Fighter/Mage/Thief    9   8   6   9   3   8  43 7.16
 Diviner               3   7   6   9  16   8  49 8.16
 Enchanter             3   7   6   9   3  16  44 7.33
______________________________________________________

Ranger is still in the lead (they're demanding, hehe), but this time is       
followed by Diviner and Enchanter. So I guess Elven society has high          
expectations for wizards. On to the gnomes, now!                              

Gnome:                                                                        
______________________________________________________

 Class               Str Dex Con Int Wis Cha S_m  Avg

 Fighter               9   3   8   7   2   3  32 5.33
 Cleric                6   3   8   7  10   3  37 6.16
 Thief                 6   9   8   7   2   3  35 5.83
 Fighter/Thief         9   9   8   7   2   3  38 6.33
 Fighter/Cleric        9   3   8   7  10   3  40 6.66
 Fighter/Illusionist   9  16   8   8   2   3  46 7.66
 Illusionist/Thief     6  16   8   8   2   3  43 7.16
 Cleric/Illusionist    6  16   8   8  10   3  51  8.5
 Cleric/Thief          6   9   8   7  10   3  43 7.16
 Illusionist           6  16   8   8   2   3  43 7.16
______________________________________________________

The scores are fairly homogenius, but Cleric/Illusionist does stand out as    
the most demanding class. Still, this is nothing like the Elven Ranger, who   
is the current S_a leader. I think that gnomes generally suffer from the fact 
that their Wisdom can be reduced to 2. Well, now, let's look at those fat,    
hairy, dissatisfied beasts... I'm talking about the dwarves, of course!       

Dwarf:                                                                        
______________________________________________________

 Class               Str Dex Con Int Wis Cha S_m  Avg

 Fighter               9   3  12   3   3   2  32 5.33
 Cleric                8   3  12   3   9   2  37 6.16
 Thief                 8   9  12   3   3   2  37 6.16
 Fighter/Thief         9   9  12   3   3   2  38 6.33
 Fighter/Cleric        9   3  12   3   9   2  38 6.33
______________________________________________________

Not many options, and no clear favourite, either. Seems that multiclass       
dwarves require better scores. Hmm, I wonder what dwarves with Charisma 2     
look like. [Probably like Thibbledorf Pwent.] Okay, what about halflings?     

Halfling:                                                                     
______________________________________________________

 Class               Str Dex Con Int Wis Cha S_m  Avg

 Fighter              10   8  10   6   3   3  40 6.66
 Cleric                6   8  10   6   9   3  42    7
 Thief                 6   8  10   6   3   3  36    6
 Fighter/Thief        10   8  10   6   3   3  40 6.66
______________________________________________________

Cleric? Cleric?!?!? I have never heard of halfling clerics before, but        
apparently in BG they are more powerful than other three classes. Not too     
many options, eh? Notice that the thief has lowest expected scores. Okay, the 
moment we've all been waiting for (I think)... bring on the extremely         
versatile half-elves!                                                         

Half-Elf:                                                                     
______________________________________________________

 Class               Str Dex Con Int Wis Cha S_m  Avg

 Fighter               9   6   6   4   3   3  31 5.16
 Ranger               13  13  14   4  14   3  61 10.1
 Cleric                3   6   6   4   9   3  31 5.16
 Druid                 3   6   6   4  12  15  46 7.66
 Mage                  3   6   6   9   3   3  30    5
 Thief                 3   9   6   4   3   3  28 4.66
 Bard                  3  12   6  13   3  15  52 8.66
 Fighter/Thief         9   9   6   4   3   3  34 5.66
 Fighter/Cleric        9   6   6   4   9   3  37 6.16
 Fighter/Mage          9   6   6   9   3   3  36    6
 Mage/Thief            3   9   6   9   3   3  33  5.5
 Cleric/Mage           3   6   6   9   9   3  36    6
 Fighter/Druid         9   6   6   4  12  15  52 8.66
 Cleric/Ranger        13  13  14   4  14   3  61 10.1
 Fighter/Mage/Thief    9   9   6   9   3   3  39  6.5
 Fighter/Mage/Cleric   9   6   6   9   9   3  42    7
 Conjurer              3   6  15   9   3   3  39  6.5
 Diviner               3   6   6   9  16   3  43 7.16
 Enchanter             3   6   6   9   3  16  43 7.16
 Transmuter            3  15   6   9   3   3  39  6.5
______________________________________________________

If you were ever in love with the half-elf-exclusive Ranger/Cleric class,     
here's the proof that it's worth it - together with pure Ranger, these two    
are leaders in this final (until BG2) Race-Class chart. And just in case you  
care, Bard and Fighter/Druid share 2nd place.                                 

In the end, Elf Ranger comes out on top, Human Ranger immediately below.      
Their Half-Elven brethren trail the Elf by 9 points; they are only one point  
behind the Human Ranger though. However you look at it, Ranger is the most    
demanding class in BG.

Hope this helps. I'll produce similar tables for BG2 soon.

[casey]

Whats minimum stats got to do with anything? the title say's the class/race combo with the best potential, not minumums.

The Paladin is still the best imo since even if an Elf Ranger has higher minimums I rarely get more then 10-15 points to redistribute and out of the 100's of rerolls I have done, I only got above 20 once, and have seen as high as 37 for the paladin, and I have tried a lot of combos, belive me.

[Meatdog]

Whats minimum stats got to do with anything?

Everything, powergaming has to do with getting really high total ability points, which is easiest achieved with high minima since that gives better numbers on your rolls. Off course if you're talking pure theoretical without looking at the odds of rolling the stat points then the class with the lowest minima would be best suited, because there you could redistribute almost every point as you see fit. It's just that it is increasingly difficult to get that 95+ total stat roll the lower the minima are.

[drowling]

the title say's the class/race combo with the best potential, not minumums

Human, Fighter in BG, dualed to Cleric in BG2 (lvl 9 or 13), Flail of Ages + Crom Faeyr

Topic: which class/race has the the best powergaming stat possibilities

Elven Ranger, Half-Elf Ranger/Cleric

[Scythesong Immortal]

And just in case you care, Bard and Fighter/Druid share 2nd place.

Jack-of-all-Trades, but a master of none. Apt.