Opinion of party - please

[Ironhawk Skylord]

Greetings all

I believe a short presentation is in order before posting my question. I am from Denmark, age 39 and I discovered there was other CPRG´s than Diablo, a year and a half ago, thanks to my nephew (Yes I know it's embarrassing late). Since then, I have played BG1 + TotSC, BG2 SoA + ToB, NWN + expansions, Planescape Torment, IWD1 + expansions and IWD2.

I have downloaded tons of walkthroughs and Faqs from this exceptional site which has been a great help to a guy like me who never played Pnp D&D.

A couple a months ago I then realized that Sorcerers Place has some excellent Forums too and has thoroughly enjoyed online solutions to bugs ex cetera.

I wonder if you would be so kind to give me our opinion to a party I would like to play through SoA (and ToB)?

It's a 6 persons party consisting of PC (Berserker), Haer Dalis, Mazzy, Valygar, Jan Janssen and Yoshimo (sub for Imoen).

Is this to difficult to accomplice? I realize I probably lack a lot of healing power in this party and perhaps real tank power but can it be done?

I have played through SoA and ToB two times before with two different parties:

Party one: PC (fighter), Minsc (sub for Sarevok), Jaheira (romance), Keldorn, Aerie and Yoshimo (sub for Imoen)

Party two: PC (fighter), Cernd (sub for Sarevok), Anomen, Nalia, Viconia (romance) and Yoshimo (sub for Imoen).

So I need a little variation now but not that much variation that I would go the evil way

Any opinion and advice for my new party idea including equipment would really be appreciated.

Thanks Guys.

[ister]

I think it's a fine party, although it's not a party I would use.

You've already said that you're low on healing, so I won't repeat that.

Tank-wise I don't see that you have a problem. Haer Dalis can work great as a tank, presumably your berzerker will be a tank, and Mazzy can also be an excellent tank.

Issues I think you might run into are
-Mazzy and Haer Dalis are both short sword users. One of these two needs to learn a new weapon quickly. There aren't enough good short swords for both of them
-Mazzy, Yoshimo, Jan and Valygar have a lot of overlapping skills. Valygar is great as a backstabber or an archer. But Yoshi is a good backstabber and Mazzy is a great archer. Similarly, Jan can cover all your thieving needs (except backstabbing) but you also have Yoshimo/Imoen. I think one of these four could easilybe replaced with a cleric to give a broader set of skills. The overlap doesn't by any means mean this party can't take care of everything in the game, but it does mean it's less versatile.

As to equipment I think I'd go with axes for your berzerker. Azuredge is spectacularly useful and is a missile weapon to boot.

[Felinoid]

Yeah, you're going to be very light on healing; enough so that it may be difficult to play, especially seeing the healing power you're used to having at your disposal in your first two parties. A quick suggestion would be dualling your Berserker to a cleric at level 7, 9, or 13. He'll still be a great tank, and in addition to just wailing on the enemy he can buff and heal. Of course, that goes out the window if using only blunt weapons ruins the character concept.

Tank power is a rather variable need. Having only one tank is doable but hard (lot of Stoneskins on your mages for the enemies that get past him), two is pretty good, and three means no trouble at all. Now, your party has your PC and Mazzy, with Haer'Dalis making a pretty good tank if you know how to play Blades just so (Scythesong's Guide to Blades can help with that if you're interested). So I don't think you'll have any problems there.

[Silverstar]

Welcome to boards, Ironhawk! SP is a wonderful place, and best resource of info about Black Isle games so far!

A little note, if you have ToB installed, you need to post your topics into ToB forum, as it is forbidden to discuss ToB only material in SoA forums.

Anyway, let's have a look at your party:

First I would say that healing is not a problem late in the game when you have tons of healing potions ready. I never have a cleric for healing only, they have other uses. Turning undead, on the other hand, is VERY useful in some situations. Greater Restoration spell also fully heals your party, a great boon which can only be casted by clerics.

Berserker is a very good tank if there is any. Just berserk when something dangerous comes (Mind Flayer, Vampire, Lich, Arch-mage, Demi-lich) and you will be safe from their special attacks, cool!

BUT, Haer can be very potent melee-fighter too. Do you have scythesong's guide to blades as Felinoid kindly suggested? With his tips, your Haer can be the most powerful NPC in your party.

Mazzy is a crack shot with her bow, but I find her melee skills somewhat lacking. I reccomend you to get the True Grand mastery fix, it fixes GM to its true potential, thus making it much more powerful as it should be. This was Mazzy will have an advantage with her bows.

Jan, I find him most useful, as he gains thief abilities, detect illusions, set traps, and thief HLAs, they are all very, very useful! He can cast nearly all good mage spells too, and has better saving throws as he is a gnome!

Immy, she is a good mage later on. And you need good mages to survive this game, believe me. (And no, Jan is not enough!) You do not need her thief skills when you have Jan, however.

Valygar:This guy is not a tank. But if used right, he can be a very powerful mage-killer. You need to buff him a lot or have him use stealth.

Why don't you have a romance? You can switch Valygar for Jaheira. Jaheira is the best tank in my games, with right equipment she has the best AC, resistances and saving throws, plus her Ironskins, summons, protection spells, healing etc. she is neat. Or dump Jan and get Aerie. Imoen will do all required thief jobs, opening locks, or disarming traps. If you think you do not need Jan's advanced thief skills, go for Aerie and have a baby in ToB!

[Decados]

The Bardic guide is about halfway down this page:
http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/BG2/index_tips.php

It is worth reading, even if you aren't all that keen on bards as some of the advice is easily transferred to other characters.

As you have realised, your healing abilities are very small. I'd advise against having so few clerical spells at your disposal- I always have a cleric, oft-times two.

I would advise exchanging either Mazzy or Valygar for Anomen, Jaheria or even Aerie. Either Jaheria or Anomen would give you clerical spells without too much reduction in fighting ability.

I also can't help but feel that Yoshimo is a bit redundant with Jan around so he could be exchanged as you've used him twice before (unless you particuarly want him of course).

[Argohir]

Berserker is the best PC My PC is a berserker and he is wonderful with his grand mastery in long swords (there is an abundance of good long swords in the game) and he has *** in dual wielding. You can do the same. And IMO if you replace Haer Dalis or Valygar with Aerie, your party will be better.

[Ironhawk Skylord]

Thanks guys for your very quick reply and valuable advices.

I guess one of NPC´s got to go, although Felinoid's suggestion was interesting. Perhaps I should dual my Berserker to Cleric. Hmmm... that would be two for ones price :-D And SoA is not short of interesting blunt waepons...

Anyway, looks like Valygar bites the dust. The reason why I want Yoshimo in again, is not that he is a cool NPC (which he is), but because those 200K of exp for his heart is too rewarding.

I probably go after Aerie since that is a romance I haven´t tried yet. Besides that Aerie with a spell sequencer of Greater Malison, Doom and Chromatic Orb is quite devastating...

I have downloaded Scythesongs Guide to Blades. Interesting reading, guess Haer'Dalis really can deal some damage

But another issue is, I suppose, the difficulties in getting the NPC´s early?

I mean, I will have to do the Planar Prison Quest to get Haer'Dalis, do the Umar Hills Quest to get Mazzy, and the Planar Sphere Quest if I want Valygar, right?

It is quests which can be difficult early on as a party, and what about timers to do the quests?

Will those 3 NPC's leave the party if those quests is not solved in a timely fashion? I can't seem to find that in the walkthroughs.

Silverstar: I have ToB installed, but I thought this was relevant for the SoA forum since its about getting a party in SoA. My bad, sorry!

Thanks guys!

[kuemper]

I mean, I will have to do the Planar Prison Quest to get Haer'Dalis, do the Umar Hills Quest to get Mazzy, and the Planar Sphere Quest if I want Valygar, right?

I haven't used HD (HaerDalis) often enough to know if he complains. You can get Mazzy and Valygar early and not do their quests until you are ready. In my games, anyway but my computer is possessed.

[Sikret]

If you know how to play a stalker, Valygar is simply the most powerful NPC in the game. My vote is to keep Valygar in the party.

Your party's main problem, in my opinion, is lack of a single or dual class mage. Jan is multi-class and he won't proceed fast enough. Replace one of your pary members with Nalia. Aerie has the same problem that Jan has. You won't cast 9th level spells before almost the end of TOB with such multi-class mages. They level up too slowly. (But of course, it all depends on your style. My playing style is mage-oriented and relies on arcane spells very much.)

Imoen is fine but if you want her to be your main mage, you will need to go to chapter 3 soon enough. No to mention that having only one mage in the party is not so good if you also have a mage-oriented playing style.

[ChickenIsGood]

I'd suggest that you eliminate Jan from the party for Arie. This way you won't loose any spellcasting ability (the ability to cast necromancy offsets the extra spell in higher levels) and you add healing power along with a romance you haven't done. The other problem with having Valygar subbed for Arie is that you'll have four characters (Jan, Haer'dalis, Imoen, and Arie) who cant wear any armor except the melodic chain (which comes early) and the elven chains (which come late) during SoA. That leaves the PC and Mazzy alone up front and Mazzy is certainly no tank. With Valygar he can wear all leathers (and there are plenty of good pieces early) and can do a devastating backstab, especially with strength boosters.

[Fly2tHeSkY]

I don't CARE what that guide says, I still hate that pathetic excuse for a bard

The Blade I created though, WOW ...

[Decados]

Anyway, looks like Valygar bites the dust. The reason why I want Yoshimo in again, is not that he is a cool NPC (which he is), but because those 200K of exp for his heart is too rewarding.

200K EXP? Bah!

IMO, a bit of experience later on is not enough of a reason to lower the overall strength. My current game is my first using Valygar and, while I don't consider him the best NPC, he is proving to be a very powerful one. Dual wielding katanas (CF and his own) and the ability to backstab is very useful.

I probably go after Aerie since that is a romance I haven´t tried yet. Besides that Aerie with a spell sequencer of Greater Malison, Doom and Chromatic Orb is quite devastating...

I'd advise placing Chaos, Slow or Emotion in a Spell Sequencer rather than Chromatic Orb. This way you can take out an entire group of enemies rather than just one.

I mean, I will have to do the Planar Prison Quest to get Haer'Dalis, do the Umar Hills Quest to get Mazzy, and the Planar Sphere Quest if I want Valygar, right?

I'm not sure if they complain as I generally do their quests immediately, though I assume they would eventually. They will give you a warning when they want you to go, so you should have plenty time.

While parts of those quests may be challenging for a low level party, they are all possible as they have to option to skip the hardest parts. You don't have to go down the holes in the floor in the Prison, you can leave the Shadow Dragon till later and you only need to take on one demon with the Sphere (you can also avoid attacking the golems in the engine room).

[ister]

Mazzy is a crack shot with her bow, but I find her melee skills somewhat lacking. I reccomend you to get the True Grand mastery fix, it fixes GM to its true potential, thus making it much more powerful as it should be.

Some say "fix" some might say "break". The game was designed with a nerfed GM. In my opinion reversing a design decision made when the game was developed is not "fixing". I wouldn't use the patch to take GM back to what it used to be. Different strokes for different folks.

Anyway even without turnign back the clock on grand mastery, Mazzy is a great tank. Great armor class, good hit points, wonderful saving throws. Give a strength belt and you have one of the best tanks in the game. Her only shortcoming is that short swords deliver piercing damage, and you can't get one that does elemental damage. So lots of enemies will be resistant. But get her early enough and you can have give her a different weapon profiency and you're all set.

But another issue is, I suppose, the difficulties in getting the NPC´s early?

I mean, I will have to do the Planar Prison Quest to get Haer'Dalis, do the Umar Hills Quest to get Mazzy, and the Planar Sphere Quest if I want Valygar, right?

It is quests which can be difficult early on as a party, and what about timers to do the quests?

Will those 3 NPC's leave the party if those quests is not solved in a timely fashion? I can't seem to find that in the walkthroughs.

I don't think so. You should be able to rescue Haer 'Dalis from the sewers and not go back to the theater until you're ready. Umar Hills is very doable if your berzerker has Azuredge. Mazzy may require you to do that quest, I'm not sure. And I'm almost certain sure you can hold off on the Planar Sphere for a while after you get Valygar.

[ChickenIsGood]

I always start off with the Umar Hills because it is a nice way to get levels and items/gold for a new party. It certainly is doable for a beginning party and it will get you Mazzy early. Not only that, but Valygar is also available there so it kills another bird. Just make sure you have have some magical weapons.

[Silverstar]

I do not like the nerfed GM rules in the game. It is so weak, those 3 extra points pumped in a slot looks like a waste. (specialisation is always good, however.)

Plus I have a lot of difficulty-enhancing mods, so I think I have the need of every edge I can get. This does not apply to Ironhawk Skylord, ofcourse, so choice will ultimately be left to him. It is his game, after all.

You can do the quests in the game in any order you want, you can even rush to Spellhold to save Immy, everything is possible, but some paths may prove more difficult. Vanilla (un-modded) game luckily balances its dungeons according to your party level though, so you may be fine.

[Aldeth the Foppish Idiot]

I agree with people who are saying it's easy enough to do the Umar Hills quest early. It's not like you have to fight the Shadow Dragon, easily the toughest opponent there. You can always come back and kick his scaled butt later when your party is more powerful.

As for your other questions: I have Valygar in my current party. I picked him up very early in the game. We went to Spellhold, the City of Caverns, and are now in the Underdark, and he still hasn't complained about me not doing his quest. So there's no time limit there.

For Haer Dalis', he does complain if you don't go back to the theater, but he won't ever actually leave your party. Besides the Planar Prison isn't that hard either. It's easy enough to lure the Warden out of the room and deal with him without the help from his lackeys.

Regarding taking Yoshimo. The answer to whether or not to take Yoshimo is the same as the question, "Are you taking Imoen?" If you are taking Imoen, there's no reason to leave him out, as he will conveniently be opening a spot up if you party right when Imoen arrives. I agree that the 200K XP alone is not enough to bring him, but if you're going to take Imoen along anyway, there's not much downside to letting him tag along. Also, he's a bit better thief than Jan early in the game (especially his set traps skill). You lose him right when Jan really starts coming into his own with his thieving abilities.

From all the suggestions I have read so far, I like Fel's the best - dual class your berserker into a cleric. From everything you have written regarding your other parties, it's pretty clear to me that you're more of a melee guy than a magic guy. By taking along Imoen, Jan, Haer Dalis' and Aerie, you would have four arcane casters. I'm a melee guy myself, and I know I wouldn't enjoy the micromanagement required to properly play four arcane magic users. Jan Haer Dalis' and Imoen will be more than enough to meet your arcane magic needs.

Finally, if you do decide to drop Valygar in favor of someone with healing abilities, I think you'd be better off taking along either Anomen or Jaheira. I know how people get down on Anomen due to his personality, but in terms of sheer power, he's one of the better NPCs in the game. You could even play a female berserker and romance Anomen, as I'm guessing you haven't done that yet.

[Equester]

@chickenisgood why would you even consider giving chain to imoen, arie and jan? robe of vecna, robe of the alignement archemage and so on will do them much better.

Give imoen robe of vecna and a good bow and you have one great char there. secondly since imoen will replace yoshimo, you got rogue covered all the way through, thirdly the 200k exp from yoshi heart is one hell of a boost in soa and will help imoen to catch up.

as for mazzy, she starts soft, but her shortsword will be okay untill you get her up in another weapon, i will surgest longswords or 2handsword, depending on what you want her to do.

secondly if you duel to cleric, healing should be fine. taking aerie with you might help though. especially since you start with 0 healing.

as for hear'dalis, lvl him in longswords or scimitars too, cause bg2 is stranglely lacking in good shortswords, although his agi draining sword is great

[Proteus_za]

Not sure if this is off topic, but I was reading an item list for BG2 tonight, and it said there is elven chain mail that wont disable arcane magic. Where do I get it?

Oh and what weapons are you allowed to backstab with? My fighter/thief couldnt backstab with a longsword (I suppose its not meant for that). Can you only use daggers and shortswords to backstab?

[Decados]

There is more than one set of elven chain in the game; none of them disable spell-casting. Off the top of my head there is one in Trademeet if you give the Mantle to a noble family, ones from dead elves in Suldanesselar, a +1 version in the same city, the +2 Sylvan Chain there too and the Bladesinger Chain from Suldanesselar's black dragon. Drow Elven Chain will not disable spells either, nor will the Melodic Chain from the Planar Prison- though it is bard-only.

There are more in ToB, but by then you should have no real need of more (except upgrading the Bladesinger Chain).

You can backstab with any melee weapon that a thief can normally use. This means longswords can be used for backstabbing. Make sure that you are behind the opponent- you will not be able to backstab from the sides or front.

[Proteus_za]

Thanks, if only I'd known that all elven chain didnt disable spellcasting... Still I prefer my robe of vecna, but I suppose a fighter/mage or mage/thief could really use some elven chain.

I'm fairly sure I was behind the guy, I was dual wielding two swords, and I think the message in the battletext specifically related to the weapons, cant remember exactly what it said. The weapons were quite high grade, I think one was foebane +5. Could certain weapons just not be suitable for backstab, err, for magical reasons or something?

Back to parties, what do you guys think about creating a few of the characters yourself? I like having NPC's in my party, but I find so few of them are really very good at what they. Aerie only has 16 wisdom and intelligence, yoshimo is a single class thief, anomen has low wisdom (not great even if he passes the test), minsc isnt bad for a tank but because he is a ranger he cant get to grand mastery and his terrible wisdom (despite his compassion) make his spellcasting worthless.

[Mordokai]

I do believe that you can't backstab when you're dual wielding. Maybe that was the problem.

As for creating your own characters: go for it. If you want REAL power, that's the only way to get it. I myself prefer NPC's. What good is power to me if there is no soul in party. Besides, I find that game is beatable with just about any party of NPC's you put together, as long as you have at least two warriors and a mage. What's on top of that, is only bonus, but I always have six party members for maximum interaction.

[Proteus_za]

I agree its nice to have npcs, it helps create... depth or something.

when you play with player created characters, you have more of a sense that these are in fact deadly weapons designed for the sole purpose of annihilating opponents. I mean, a fighter with an intelligence of 3 wouldnt know the sharp end of a sword from the blunt end.

But having played the game a lot, I tend to keep a few npcs in my party, and then have a few player created characters for maximum damage.

[ister]

as for hear'dalis, lvl him in longswords or scimitars too, cause bg2 is stranglely lacking in good shortswords, although his agi draining sword is great

Short Sword of backstabbing is one of the earliest +3 weapons you can get very easily. Kundane is one of the best weapons in SoA. It's ideal for Haer Dalis, because when he has it in his off hand he gets an extra attack with his main weapon (poison or dexterity drainer). Short sword of backstabbing is the best +4 weapon available before the Underdark. Only the Giant Hammer, Mace of Disruption and staff of Rhynn will beat an improved mantle before the underdark. And the sword of the mask is one of the best ToB weapons.

There are plenty of great short swords for haer Dalis or Mazzy. Just not enough for both of them.

I'm fairly sure I was behind the guy, I was dual wielding two swords, and I think the message in the battletext specifically related to the weapons, cant remember exactly what it said. The weapons were quite high grade, I think one was foebane +5. Could certain weapons just not be suitable for backstab, err, for magical reasons or something?

Foebane is a bastard sword, not a long sword. You cannot backstab with bastard swords. You may not even be proficient with it.

IIRC you can backstab with:
dagger, short sword, long sword, club, quarterstaff, katana and scimitar. Others won't work.

[Proteus_za]

Ah, thats probably it. I know its a bastard sword, was in the watchers keep at the time. I had high or grand mastery in them, cant remember.

I'll do some experiments when I get time, see if you cant backstab while dual wielding.

Back to party analysis, what difference does having high wisdom make to a clerics casting ability? I need a cleric for the party I'll soon start, and I was thinking Aerie to kill 2 birds with one stone. If she has only 16 wis, will that make for a terrible cleric? She'll still be able to learn level 7 spells right? and her intelligence of 16 means she cant learn any level 9 spells unless she drinks a potion right?

I must say, out of all the BG2 npcs, I think Keldorn is my favourite. Give him gauntlets of dexterity and the carsomyr, you have a very useful guy. his dispel magic and true seeing have saved my ass so many times.

[ister]

You can backstab while dual wielding. I've played most of the game backstabbing with Crom Faeyr in the off hand.

Wisdom 16 means Aerie has one fewer spell slot at level 3 and one fewer at level 4. Not great, but doesn't really have much effect on her usefulness as a caster. And NPCs don't have the same problems learning level 9 spells that the PC has.