An interesting viewpoint on WTC

[The Soul Forever Seeking]

Now, I know it's not September, but I just found this while wandering the internet. A collection of articles called 'Visionary Darkness.' Despite the gothy sounding name, the articles in it are mostly the authors ranting about various things that piss them off, like winter, The Price is Right, the state of Maryland for some reason, and this.

Video Store 9-11-01

Okay, it's not particularly controversial, but the Alley seemed to be the only place to put an article about 9-11.

I am Canadian, and I am not proud to say that on that fateful Tuesday, I didn't really get it. The full magnitude of the situation didn't really sink in until a few days later. One of the memories that really bothers me is of me, sitting on the couch, burning towers on the TV, with a Gameboy in my hand. Ouch.

Any thoughts?

[edit: Oh, and the article contains some swearing, but I think the Alley dwellers are mature enough to handle it.]

[JSBB]

I was actually on a full week tax course at the time and the course just continued on as if nothing was happening. I think most of us watched a few minutes of tv coverage between sessions but quite frankly I have never undersood the compulsion some people have to watch hours of news footage about the same thing.

Personally, I did not find the events of September 11th any more disturbing than any of the other violent deaths that happen constantly here and around the world. Sure the size of the death toll was large by North American standards but it was nothing compared to the wars and ethnic clensing incidents that have occurred globally in the last century.

In terms of someone renting Dude, Where's my Car? - I don't think there is any time when such an action is justifiable but quite frankly I would say that September 11th was probably a better day to do so than most others.

The last time when we had a death in the family we gathered together and spent that evening watching The Naked Gun. We all found it greatly comforting to laugh again after the great sadness that we had experienced.

Maybe the video store customer being described just didn't care about what happened in New York or maybe he realized that while it was a tragedy life must go on.

[Shralp]

I hope the author of that article writes one on people who can write blase crap like

Personally, I did not find the events of September 11th any more disturbing than any of the other violent deaths that happen constantly here and around the world. Sure the size of the death toll was large by North American standards but it was nothing compared to the wars and ethnic clensing incidents that have occurred globally in the last century.

Please tell me how many times you have watched on television as thousands died. Sure, it happens in Eastern Europe and parts of Africa and the Middle East, but this was right next door in the nation that does more to defend your country than... well, than your own country does. If you can't grasp the monumental significance of September 11th, then there is something abysmally wrong with you. Your "it was nothing, really" attitude is disgusting.

[Aldeth the Foppish Idiot]

I don't say this to be arrogant, or to be in any way derrogatory, but the main reason you probably don't have as stong of feelings for the attacks of 9-11 is because you're both Canadian. While Canada has been viewed as the United States' little brother by many of the outside world, the fact is that Canada has a way of attempting to distance themselves from the U.S. (Moreso now than ever - no Canadaian wants to be referred to as an American.) So, while you understood what was going on, Canadians I believe still have the perception of "things like that may happen in the U.S., but not here". So naturally there is an air of non-concern. I actually admire that to an extent. The Canadians are some of the most non-violent people in the world. They were slightly involved in WWII, and helped out a little in the Gulf War (the first one), but largely have had no major military conflicts for at least 60 years or so. Anyone from the baby boomer age onwards, really has nothing to relate to personally on war. Conversely, the United States had the Korean War, the Vietnam War, two Gulf Wars, and innummerable smaller skirmishes in Latin America and more recently Afghanistan. So I think it's understandable that you think the way you do, but I think the main reason for it is you aren't Americans.

That having been said, I think most Americans would take great offense to your comments, in thinking that basically 9-11 isn't a big deal. I suspect some future angry posts, but they won't be from me.

EDIT: Shralp posted while I was writing this. The "both" I refer to are the first two people on the thread.

[Manus]

I read the article, and have since relaxed, and removed the rant I had begun to write about the author. Now normally I keep my cool pretty well, I haven't exclaimed or made any facial gestures, I sighed once, but this man is outrageous, if you read it, you will realize how rediculous and hypocritical the author seems to be.

Shralp, I assume you are angry, but I agree entirely with JSBB, this was not a big deal, far worse things happen all the time. We do not have to see them on TV to know this, but the fact that the country within which you live will not televise this is unsurprising, yet still disturbing.

I ask you to explain the monumental signifigance of this event as it applied to you, or even on a world scale? It has had an effect in change of government within some countries, but I assert that this was allready on the drawing board in the first place. How has it changed the world? it hasn't, not yet in any case. I seem to doubt that it has an effect upon you personally in any monumental fashion, else one would hope you had grown from the experience.

Now this is perhaps becasue I am not troubled by death. I do not fear it, and I accept it as a necessary and inevitable, and unnnavoidable part of our lives. So many people do not die by accident. You are free to refute this if that is not your own belief, but it does not change the fact that people dying is not the end of the world. I have had enough friends and family members die, so I am not nieve in this respect, and becoming submerged in neo-patriotic rage does not help anyone. Least of all those who died.


I will tell you this, even though I am aware it wil offend some members of this community, and for this, I deeply apologise, for I wish to offend no-one, but I respect the truth, and I could not agree with myself if I lied.

Frankly, when I was told about this, I couldn't care less, it was mildly amusing, and it was late at night so I was tired. At the time I figured that an all out war might put an end to all the petty bickering. When I arrived home I watched the news for a small while, and indeed felt sorry for those dead, and the populace of the US for the actions of their government. For I belived that whether it was a plot by that government, or retaliation for their arrogance, they were somehow at least partially responcible, as are all leaders for their people. I felt sorrier for anyone getting caught in the crossfire which would innevitably ensue due to the vengeful nature of the countries involved. After about twenty to forty minutes of this news they had begun heavily repeating the old material, so I went to bed, as did the family I had awoken so that they might see the news as well. You do know that on that very morning the US bombed a school full of children don't you? The rest of the world does not believe that it revolves around America, so why do you keep telling us it does? If they stopped starting wars there wouldn't be as many to protect the rest of us from. If the US really cared about the rest of the world, it would use it's military superiority to keep peace rather than break it -the taliban had been abusing the Afghani people for years (and were assisted by the US in the first place, but that's beside the point)- or better yet they could stop involvement in warfare alltogether. Or perhaps they could disband the WTO, the single most harmful entity to most countries, to most people, the world over.

I find your attitudes as disagreeable as you find JSBB's, but I understand why you feel this way. My tone was harsh because I wanted to make my point clear. A horrendous thing for you personally, whether there is any reason for this or not, is going to be horrendous, and I would not try to convince you it should not be so. But that does not mean it must be as equally monumental for everyone else.

[Death Rabbit]

Fellas, I think we can all agree that 3,000 people dying all at once is a terrible tragedy in any country. When you say it's no more tragic than events that happen in other places in the world, when was the last time you can remember that 3.000 people died in one day, in one single attack?

Saying that it's not a big deal, and further more asserting that Americans would shrug it off entirely had it happened in another country is rather callous and a little naive. We're not all heartless, self interested bastards. Don't judge us by our current administration, even if they are.

If 9-11 had happened to any of our allies, I guarantee you we would have been the first nation to respond militarily, and probably the first with aid as well. I believe our public would have demanded nothing less.

And Manus,

For I belived that whether it was a plot by that government, or retaliation for their arrogance, they were somehow at least partially responcible, as are all leaders for their people.

So you're basically saying that the victims of 9-11, about a fifth of whome weren't even US citizens, deserved to pay the price for the arrogance of the US government. Nice attitude. Nothing my government has done justifies the deliberate killing of so many innocent people.

[ArtEChoke]

Personally, I did not find the events of September 11th any more disturbing than any of the other violent deaths that happen constantly here and around the world. Sure the size of the death toll was large by North American standards but it was nothing compared to the wars and ethnic clensing incidents that have occurred globally in the last century.

To me this simply begs the question, how disturbing *do* you find the "other violent deaths that happen constantly here and around the world?"

Manus, mildly amusing? 3000 people incinerated with jet fuel?

How very goth-cool of you, wanna go smoke a cig out by the bike rack after study hall?

[Manus]

My apologies again, I tried to make this clear but I believe I failed.

I had hoped that my character would be clear to those of you who had read my other posts, thus you would understand what I meant. It obviously was not, so I will try to explain myself further, more in the hopes of reducing the offense I am aware I have caused than trying to defend the view I once held.

I was not trying to say any of the things you have accused me of, and you will notice that I stated I felt sorrow for the American people, not that they had deserved such a fate, but that I pitied the actions of their leaders had had such repercussions. I was not trying to paint the public as arrogant, only point out to Shralp that this has not affected everyone else the way it has the US.

If this had happened to my own country, as much as I appreciate your sincerity in offering aid, I would rather that more deaths were not cause. Two wrongs do not make a right, there is a better way.

ArtEChoke, I know you have not been here recently, or at least, I assume that since I have not seen your name in a discussion I have entered into, so I know you may have mistakenly drawn such an assumption.

Please understand that is not my character at all, nor my age, nor was that ever the way I have thought. I would not even hold the view that I did then any longer, but as I said, I respect the truth too much to say that the opinions I now have are those I always held. I do not worship death, I accept it as a necessary part of the cycle of life. I say mildly amusing only in that I could not believe the actions of the world. Have you never laughed at the absurdness of it all? I have given up trying to make sense of the actions of some. I know why they act so, I know it is not my place to tell them to act any differently, but I cannot for the life of me accept it as what life should be, what it could be.

I know it is easy to get angry about these things, but it it does you more harm than the one you direct the anger at, I implore you not to learn this the hard way, as did I.

[Laches]

The, "it wasn't a big deal, worse stuff happens all the time, get over it" style comments are interesting in light of the Afghani friendly fire/accident thread going on right now.

In one thread moral outrage over, for example, the accidental killing of 4 soldiers is expressed and in another the intentional killing of 3000 civilians is 'mildly amusing.'

I can't help but think there is a strange inconsistency in this view - from whence does this inconsistency spring do you suppose?

The exact same attitude expressed here of, "compared to other things..." is attacked in the other thread as callous and cruel. Just another one of the bewildering things that make me go "huh?" on this board I guess.

For the record - I find a qualitative difference between an accidental act and an intentional one.

[Manus]

I'm going to explain this one last time, then I've had enough, and the rest of you can think what you will, and call me what you will, I no longer am concerned.

I do not have moral outrage over anything, because I just don't get angry over important things anymore, it is only little things that bug me.

I have allready explained what was meant by mildly amusing, and how it has been misinterpreted, I will not do so again.

The inconsistency springs from your desire to critisize me. I am left with no other option, because all the things you have said I have spoken of in other topics, if not this one, and I know that you have read that becasuse you seem to twist them against me as you have here, and in the other thread you mention. It is not important to me if you decide to misconstrue my meanings, or infer implications were I have intended none, but this detracts from the thing in itself, and may lead others to also be mislead. I do not appreciate being called a Liar, and to me a liar is anything which does not give total obediency to the truth.

I have not attacked other's ideas of 'compared to other things' in that thread (or any that I can remember) as anything, let alone callous and cruel. All I do is bring to attention what people seem to leave out of their judgement, and this is the balme that lies upon them. I do not support terrorist attacks, I merely say the US cannot be free of guilt. Likewise in those other threads I am sure that enough people can figure out for themselves the reasons for the attacks by America, and this is in no way my point. What I am trying to say is that you cannot justify any action by another one, it doesn't work like that. All I am trying to say that the warefare itself is being fought callously and carlessly. I do not think that anyone could argue with this, because regardless of whether things improve, or who else is doing the same thing, killing innocents and allies so often is not good enough. I'm not calling anyone evil because of this (and I don't know where you got that idea from), I'm just trying to bring to the attention of people those things they refuse to think of. Like the fact that the WTC, allthough a great loss of life, was not an Earth-Shattering event to those uninvolved, and this type of thing does happen, for example, the death toll in the middle-Eastern countries America attacked becasue of it superceded that number quickly, and many countries are in a state of perpetual war, where buildings are bombed every day. They may not have as many people in each individual complex, but far far more die (if not in a single day than in a single week, and it continues the next day and the next) and I think you would agree that that is a worse state of affairs than a single attack (two including the pentagon which was a part of the same attack). I'm not saying that this makes the WTC meaningless, I'm saying that it means no more to me than any other event.

I find little difference betweeen an accidental and intentional death. In both cases people are dead, and due to anothers ignorance.

I do not bessech anyone to think that this or anything else is meaningless, I only try to bring to light that which others have deemed meaningless. Being distraught about something and being able to accept it for what it is, and the influence it has taken upon you, are two very different things. The absence of one does not imply the absence of the other.

[Hacken Slash]

Let's see, how do I say this...Grey has accused me of being a sappy peacemaker...but I think I do understand the "perspective" of JSBB and Manus. I don't agree, and I don't like the casual nature of some of what each has said, but I think that they both echo a predominate viewpoint that illustrates a certain "world view" to the tragedy.

I think that each one was trying to express the understanding that we should not be shocked at all about the attack, as we indeed should have seen it coming as a result of generally bankrolled hatred against the US in many parts of the world. I think, that each has said in their own way, "why are you so shocked...this was bound to happen sooner or later".

I would ask you both, Manus and JSBB, to consider the fact that this amounted to the attack of one sovreign nation (Afganistan, due to indelible link between the ruling Taliban and al-Queda) upon another sovreign nation. The US has not experienced such an action since the War of 1812 when the Brits (God luv em) burned down the Capitol. Even then, the civilian deaths were minimal. The events of 9/11 were a shocking and devasting attack against "Fortress America", and if nothing else, should serve as a cautionary tale to the world that there is no place left where you are safe.

Anyway, that's my two cents. I know Manus fairly well, and know that he does not have a cavalier attitude toward the death of anyone...just think he spoke an attitude in a way that translated poorly to the subject matter.

@Manus...ArtEChoke is one of the serious old-timers, as in on life support at the Elk Lodge...he's a big gun...don't call him out, bro.

EDIT: wow, who'd of thought that Manus would be posting at the same time I wrote this! Did I mention that he is my clone...of course something went horribly wrong. I'll have to hang my hopes on my other clone, Bobcat Goldwaithe.

[JSBB]

I would like to clarify my position as expressed in my previous post.

The events of September 11th were a tragedy. I was saddened by the loss of life and feel sorry for the family and friends of those who died.

However, there are many tragic deaths that occur around the world whether it be caused by ethnic cleansing in Africa, terrorism in the middle east, a natural disaster, or an innocent bystander getting hit by a stray shot fired by a gang member. I feel equally saddened by these deaths as well. The victim's nationality or geographic proximity to where I live makes little difference to me with regards to the value I place on his or her life.

In my mind, the fact that the deaths in the USA happened over the course of a couple hours as part of one series of co-ordinated attacks does not make them worse than if they were spread out over a longer period of time. If I were to compare the deaths in the September 11th attacks to an equal number of deaths in an ethnic cleansing campaign I would say that they were equally tragic regardless of the fact that the killings in the ethnic cleansing campaign may have taken place over the course of weeks instead of hours.

Furthermore, I can not say that the events of September 11th have caused me to change the way that I live my life. The threat of terrorist acts has always existed and the fact that such an attack happened on September 11th has not caused me to perceive there being any greater risk of it happening again. There will always be the chance that someone out there will kill you whether it be via something as news worthy as a terrorist attack or something as mundane as drunk driving. However, I do not feel any inclination to worry about it - if it happens it happens and all of the worrying in the world will not change that.

As far as the "You would feel different if this happened in Canada" argument, maybe I would. I would like to think that my reaction would be the same if the attack had occured in Canada but given that it didn't I really don't know if this would be true.

[Grey Magistrate]

Two quotes jump out at me:

However, there are many tragic deaths that occur around the world whether it be caused by ethnic cleansing in Africa, terrorism in the middle east, a natural disaster, or an innocent bystander getting hit by a stray shot fired by a gang member. I feel equally saddened by these deaths as well. The victim's nationality or geographic proximity to where I live makes little difference to me with regards to the value I place on his or her life.

I don't think we're supposed to feel "equally saddened" by any deaths anywhere. We're supposed to care more for our family than total strangers, more for our own country than another's, etc. We're called to love and care for those with whom we have some level of contact or responsibility. This includes enemies - we forgive those who sin against us, not against others! If I try to equalize love for my mom with love for the millions dead in the Congo war, chances are the result will not be more love for the Congolese but less love for my mom. (Or as CSLewis wrote, we easily love and forgive in the abstract people we never meet, but are unkind and cold to those we meet every day.)

So there's nothing morally wrong with Canadians or Brits or whoever being less affected by the WTC attacks. A French newspaper proclaimed that "we are all Americans" right after the WTC attack, and the US appreciated the sentiment; but, there's nothing wrong with the French "getting over it" long before the US. There's not even anything wrong with the French resenting our attempts to squeeze more compassion from them. They have their own tragedies to deal with - like the 15,000 dead from the summer heat wave. And I have no problem with you, Manus, writing that "the WTC, although a great loss of life, was not an Earth-Shattering event to those uninvolved". Exactly - but it IS an earth-shattering event to those who ARE involved.

Non-Americans are not moral monsters or indifferent cads if they don't lose any sleep over the WTC attacks. And Americans aren't moral hypocrites for being more deeply hurt by dead New Yorkers than dead Zambians.

As for that other quote:

I find little difference betweeen an accidental and intentional death. In both cases people are dead, and due to another's ignorance.

After the First World War, an epidemic swept through Europe, and an estimated 18 million died. That's far more than died in the trenches. My professor said that this shows how ignorant we are - we remember the war, but not the plague, even though the plague killed more.

But I don't think so. I agree with Laches - there IS a difference between accidental and intentional death. It's called evil. Evil makes all the difference in the world. But we've already had a discussion about that, haven't we?

[Lokken]

Non-Americans are not moral monsters or indifferent cads if they don't lose any sleep over the WTC attacks. And Americans aren't moral hypocrites for being more deeply hurt by dead New Yorkers than dead Zambians.

I find this to make a great deal of sense. At least it applies to my way of thought as well.

But I don't think so. I agree with Laches - there IS a difference between accidental and intentional death. It's called evil. Evil makes all the difference in the world. But we've already had a discussion about that, haven't we?

er.. from your point of view, maybe. Be careful to generalize. Killing evil intentionally is evil too? Important to say what point of view we're looking from here.