Iraqi Nuclear Facilities Left Unguarded

[Death Rabbit]

I have a question for the Bush supporters who claim that WMD was not the main reason we invaded Iraq, and part of the bigger picture was to make sure that nuclear and weapons-grade material didn't fall into the hands of terrorists.

Would you care to explain THIS to me?

Some Iraqi nuclear facilities appear to be unguarded, and radioactive materials are being taken out of the country, the U.N.'s nuclear watchdog agency reported after reviewing satellite images and equipment that has turned up in European scrapyards.

- - - -

No such [WMD] have been found, and arms control officials now worry the war and its chaotic aftermath may have increased chances that terrorists could get their hands on materials used for unconventional weapons or that civilians may be unknowingly exposed to radioactive materials.

I suppose Bush holding up a sign saying "Hey, towelheads - I double-dog-dare you to make a dirty bomb" would be pushing it, huh?

[Darkwolf]

Oh Death Rabitt, has it really come to this?

OK, I really hate picking up this gautlet though.

Hear is what I would bet Bush would like to say to the allegations levied by Mr. ElBaradei and CNN.

Some Iraqi nuclear facilities appear to be unguarded

Unguarded by who? Just because the U.N. isn't guarding them doesn't mean that no one is.

The IAEA is waiting for a reply from the United States, which is leading the coalition administering Iraq, officials said.

[snip]

The United States has virtually cut off information-sharing with the IAEA since invading Iraq in March 2003 on the premise that the country was hiding weapons of mass destruction.

[snip] (By the way, shouldn’t someone at a place as sophisticated as CNN know that you don’t hyphenate “information sharing”. That looks like a mistake an ordinary guy like me might make LOL!)

According to ElBaradei's letter, satellite imagery shows "extensive removal of equipment and in some instances, removal of entire buildings," in Iraq.

Really! And for some reason you think we weren't aware of that? You think that your satellites managed to find that and ours didn't? That is pretty amusing considering anything in the possession of the UN is going to be from surveillance technology that is about 20 years behind what we have. We have thrown technology more sophisticated that what you have in the trash. As a matter of fact, that satellite...Mr. ElBaradei, you are aware that stealing from a dumpster is a crime in many US municipalities.

In addition, "large quantities of scrap, some of it contaminated, have been transferred out of Iraq from sites" previously monitored by the IAEA.

Really, where did they end up?

In January, the IAEA confirmed that Iraq was the likely source of radioactive material known as yellowcake that was found in a shipment of scrap metal at Rotterdam harbor.

Really, “likely” huh? Any place else?

A small number of Iraqi missile engines have also turned up in European ports, IAEA officials said.

Yeah, well where else would you like them to appear? Maybe we should have them shipped all the way to the US?

"It is not clear whether the removal of these items has been the result of looting activities in the aftermath of the recent war in Iraq or as part of systematic efforts to rehabilitate some of their locations," ElBaradei wrote to the council.

[snip]

Sorry it took me so long to get back to you, it was really busy down at the RNC office, and I had to wait a while for them to give me my opinion.

[Warning pending.] - Beren

[ April 17, 2004, 05:47: Message edited by: Beren ]

[Taluntain]

It'd probably be better if you hadn't, because you only made a fool of yourself with that post. Considering you have not a single valid argument to present here (short of childish "nya-nya" stuff), I have no idea why you bothered. And this is after Beren obviously cut out the offensive parts. Too bad I wasn't around to do it myself.

[Darkwolf]

My point is, that while the IAEA admits they have no presence there, and admit that the US has cut off all sharing, they claim that they know that dangerous materials are not being guarded. How can they know this?

They can't explain how things are turning up in places, but again they admit that the US is not telling them anything.

Their entire argument is based upon the "fact" that they know this stuff isn't being guarded based on satellite photos. The Bush administration "knew" where the WMD's were based upon satellite photos. Given that in all likelihood, the US satellite surveillance technology is advanced beyond what the UN has at its disposal, it is very likely that they are mistaken, just as the Bush administration was regarding the location of the WMD's.

Until further damning evidence is released, this is nothing but propaganda on the part of the IAEA and the UN, in my opinion. CNN would have been better served to come up with some independent confirmation, or provided evidence as to who is sending the scrap out of Iraq.

The RNC comment was only made because I knew that I would be attacked in some manner similar to that anyway (as has occurred in the past). It was a joke, but I guess it wasn't funny to some.

[Taluntain]

Given that in all likelihood, the US satellite surveillance technology is advanced beyond what the UN has at its disposal, it is very likely that they are mistaken, just as the Bush administration was regarding the location of the WMD's.

The UN is probably using the US's satellite surveillance technology (only with a capped resolution), or the EU's which isn't any worse iirc. So I really don't know where you're pulling this "anything in the possession of the UN is going to be from surveillance technology that is about 20 years behind what we have" from. Do you actually have any sources to support your statements, or are you just making wild guesses? Because that's what it sounds like.

Oh, and by the way, the Bush administration was not accidentally "mistaken" about WMD, they consciously lied about it, with a definite agenda behind all the lies (getting the US public and the rest of the world to support their invasion of Iraq). What exactly do you propose is the UN's agenda behind them sending out a warning that some Iraqi nuclear facilities appear to be unguarded?

[Death Rabbit]

Hmm, let's see...biting wit, antagonistic, malaise, patronising...now THAT'S the Darkwolf I remember!

But seriously...this is no laughing matter.

Until further damning evidence is released, this is nothing but propaganda on the part of the IAEA and the UN, in my opinion. CNN would have been better served to come up with some independent confirmation, or provided evidence as to who is sending the scrap out of Iraq.

The actual assertion alone is very newsworthy. Don't blame CNN. Or the Washington Post. Or the Associated Press. Etc. etc. Point is, not just liberal CNN. Here, too. Besides, this is hardly "new" news. The stockpiles have been entirely neglected by the US since just after we invaded in April 2003. No one remembers the debacle about Iraqis using yellowcake barrels to store drinking water, because nobody thought about guarding the stockpile warehouses. Remember that? The IAEA was pretty frustrated about that too, considering that place had been well monitored before the invasion. The fact that materials from that storage facility are turning up all over the place is pretty clear evidence that not much has been done about it.

Again, not to attack you, but this is kind of the same mode of arguement I'm talking about. You obviously hate the UN and don't trust anything they say. Fair enough, I guess. But that storage facility in Tuwaitha stores 94 tones of natural "yellowcake" uranium, and about 4 tons of strontium, cesium, and other high-grade nuclear materials. Not enough for a conventional nuke, but plenty for a small to mid-level dirty bomb. This facility was left unguarded long enough for it to be looted by villagers on donkeys looking for barrels. It wasn't a priority at the start of the war, and there is ample reason to think it still isn't. If this doesn't concern you, fine. But don't brush it aside because you think the IAEA is spouting propaganda. I think you're letting your bias here overshadow the big picture, IMO.

I would think, if we were really concerned about keeping dangerous material out of the hands of terrorists, we would build the friggin' great wall of China around this place. Yes, even old, creaky satellites can tell if no one is guarding something. The fact is that if the Pentagon, after 3 weeks of ingorning their request, can't explain this, it's logical for the IAEA to draw their own conclusions on this.

This is another one of those "God, I hope I'm wrong" arguements from me.

edit - Also, if, as you say, the official position of the Pentagon and the administration towards the UN and the IAEA should be "None of your F'ing business!" we're in more danger of "death by hubris" then I ever would have thought possible. You don't just stick your fingers in your ears when a group who specializes in this sort of thing mentions there may be a problem. I really can't think of anything more childish and irresponsible than that.

[ April 18, 2004, 23:07: Message edited by: Death Rabbit ]