Parry

chevalier · Sun, 17th Dec '06, 4:59pm

I've heard people say it's great in NWN2 and even suggesting it for traditional armoured combatants to take. My impression is that full plate and large shield offer a blasting impediment to successful use of a DEX-based skill such as Parry no matter how many ranks. Add to this the fact that fully plated characters practically never have DEX above 12, almost always have around 10, and even less-armoured characters typically have armour penalties exceeding their DEX bonus. And let's not forget that even max skill ranks, DEX bonus and Skill Focus and the absence of any armour (even with 18 DEX, that's level + 10) won't really beat a good weapon wielded with some strength and skill. For example, an enemy with an Attack Bonus stat equal to your DEX, some small magical enhancement to it, Weapon Focus and perhaps + 3 enchantment on his weapon, will fall behind you only by just a couple of points.

Let's see:

Level 10 fighter with max Parry, 14 DEX, chainmail, SF: Parry: 13 + 2 - 5 + 3 = 13

Level 10 fighter with 14 DEX, Weapon Finesse: Rapier, Weapon Focus Rapier: 10 + 2 + 1 = 13... think what when he has a +3 weapon and/or some power toys

You can forget counter-attacking. Your chance to block his blow is about 50% even if he wields a mundane weapon.

Level 10 paladin with 14 STR, Bull's Strength, longsword +2, Weapon Focus: Longsword, Divine Favour: 10 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 1 + 3 = 19... and this is not the highest Attack Bonus I've seen on level 10 paladins

Now imagine the paladin attempts parrying. Hypothetically against a similar paladin. That's just laughable.

Or is there something I'm missing?

omnigodly · Sun, 17th Dec '06, 7:30pm

I don't think armor check penalty applies to parry. It tends to apply only to athletic skills, such as jump/swim/climb, most of which don't exist in NWN2.

When working with all those numbers I'm not fully understanding where some of the numbers are coming from, such as the random +3 from the first set that makes it equal 13. A +x weapon isn't going to effect parry on the Parry'rs side.

Lv10 fighter with max parry and 14 dex will have a parry of 15.

Lv10 Fighter with 18 str will have a BAB of 10.
The total attack bonus will probably be something like 18. +4 str, +3 weapon, +1 wp Focus.

Parry doesn't tend to give you much of a chance to actually parry, but it's an extra chance on top of your AC to block an attack or even counter-attack, since it's based on a roll, you can't expect for parry to just never work.

Besides, by level 10 add 6 to your parry check for gloves of swordplay, and you have a parry of 21.

personally I don't like Parry, I think it's worthless since you can't attack while parrying. But I guess it's a decent enough skill if you want to be a turtle instead of a fighter...

chevalier · Sun, 17th Dec '06, 8:57pm

Hmm... the manual doesn't mention Parry (it says physical skills and enumerates three rogue skills), but I've checked my brother's save and it looks like removing armour reduces your parry penalty.

The +3 was from Skill Focus Parry.

Unless the game has it wrong, Parry is worthless for armoured characters.

omnigodly · Sun, 17th Dec '06, 10:00pm

I think you're right Chevalier. Especially if armor check penalty applies to Parry (which is on the 1-10 scale of retardem a 10, considering it's a combat skill, you should be able to use it unhindered in... combat lol), it's worthless. Rogues won't be taking hit, since they should be sneaking around and getting Sneak Attacks, (with a bow or dagger doesn't matter).
The skill in general is worthless when you can go full defensive (no attacking but +4 AC instead of, no attacking and a 30% chance to block attacks). It also doesn't exist in D&D, so I don't know who thought it up... it's like implementing Knockdown instead of trip!

Sir Fink · Mon, 18th Dec '06, 10:53am

I can only say I tested out a Duelist character in a module and was pretty impressed. At high levels, with high DEX and good equipment, basically nothing was touching my Duelist and she was reposting like mad.

But yes, I wouldn't bother with the skill unless you're focused on a light (or no) armor wearing, DEX-based character.

Skywind · Tue, 19th Dec '06, 3:47am

Even while wearing light armour, there will be penalty for parry?

Sir Fink · Tue, 19th Dec '06, 10:02am

I assume so. Look at the armor's stats and it should say whether there is a skill-check penalty. Studded Leather, for example, has -1 while Leather and Padded have zero.

chevalier · Tue, 19th Dec '06, 12:10pm

Don't know if the game has one, but AFAIK mithral chainmail should count as light armour and offer little penalty to checks.

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Sun, 17th Dec '06, 4:59pm	#1
chevalier SPS Account Holder Senior News Editor Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: I wish I were in the land of coffee... Posts: 16,675 Like: 2 Liked 1 Time in 1 Post vBActivity - Stats XP: 62,754 Level: 62 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 24.52% Daily Activity 2.98% Weekly Activity 1.28% Monthly Activity 2.11% Achievements	I've heard people say it's great in NWN2 and even suggesting it for traditional armoured combatants to take. My impression is that full plate and large shield offer a blasting impediment to successful use of a DEX-based skill such as Parry no matter how many ranks. Add to this the fact that fully plated characters practically never have DEX above 12, almost always have around 10, and even less-armoured characters typically have armour penalties exceeding their DEX bonus. And let's not forget that even max skill ranks, DEX bonus and Skill Focus and the absence of any armour (even with 18 DEX, that's level + 10) won't really beat a good weapon wielded with some strength and skill. For example, an enemy with an Attack Bonus stat equal to your DEX, some small magical enhancement to it, Weapon Focus and perhaps + 3 enchantment on his weapon, will fall behind you only by just a couple of points. Let's see: Level 10 fighter with max Parry, 14 DEX, chainmail, SF: Parry: 13 + 2 - 5 + 3 = 13 Level 10 fighter with 14 DEX, Weapon Finesse: Rapier, Weapon Focus Rapier: 10 + 2 + 1 = 13... think what when he has a +3 weapon and/or some power toys You can forget counter-attacking. Your chance to block his blow is about 50% even if he wields a mundane weapon. Level 10 paladin with 14 STR, Bull's Strength, longsword +2, Weapon Focus: Longsword, Divine Favour: 10 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 1 + 3 = 19... and this is not the highest Attack Bonus I've seen on level 10 paladins Now imagine the paladin attempts parrying. Hypothetically against a similar paladin. That's just laughable. Or is there something I'm missing?

Sun, 17th Dec '06, 7:30pm	#2
omnigodly Gems: 17/31 Latest gem: Star Diopside Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Eh... Home Posts: 941 Like: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts vBActivity - Stats XP: 2,765 Level: 17 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 12% Daily Activity 2.98% Weekly Activity 1.28% Monthly Activity 4.04% Achievements	I don't think armor check penalty applies to parry. It tends to apply only to athletic skills, such as jump/swim/climb, most of which don't exist in NWN2. When working with all those numbers I'm not fully understanding where some of the numbers are coming from, such as the random +3 from the first set that makes it equal 13. A +x weapon isn't going to effect parry on the Parry'rs side. Lv10 fighter with max parry and 14 dex will have a parry of 15. Lv10 Fighter with 18 str will have a BAB of 10. The total attack bonus will probably be something like 18. +4 str, +3 weapon, +1 wp Focus. Parry doesn't tend to give you much of a chance to actually parry, but it's an extra chance on top of your AC to block an attack or even counter-attack, since it's based on a roll, you can't expect for parry to just never work. Besides, by level 10 add 6 to your parry check for gloves of swordplay, and you have a parry of 21. personally I don't like Parry, I think it's worthless since you can't attack while parrying. But I guess it's a decent enough skill if you want to be a turtle instead of a fighter...

Sun, 17th Dec '06, 8:57pm	#3
chevalier SPS Account Holder Senior News Editor Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: I wish I were in the land of coffee... Posts: 16,675 Like: 2 Liked 1 Time in 1 Post vBActivity - Stats XP: 62,754 Level: 62 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 24.52% Daily Activity 2.98% Weekly Activity 1.28% Monthly Activity 2.11% Achievements	Hmm... the manual doesn't mention Parry (it says physical skills and enumerates three rogue skills), but I've checked my brother's save and it looks like removing armour reduces your parry penalty. The +3 was from Skill Focus Parry. Unless the game has it wrong, Parry is worthless for armoured characters.

Sun, 17th Dec '06, 10:00pm	#4
omnigodly Gems: 17/31 Latest gem: Star Diopside Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Eh... Home Posts: 941 Like: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts vBActivity - Stats XP: 2,765 Level: 17 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 12% Daily Activity 2.98% Weekly Activity 1.28% Monthly Activity 4.04% Achievements	I think you're right Chevalier. Especially if armor check penalty applies to Parry (which is on the 1-10 scale of retardem a 10, considering it's a combat skill, you should be able to use it unhindered in... combat lol), it's worthless. Rogues won't be taking hit, since they should be sneaking around and getting Sneak Attacks, (with a bow or dagger doesn't matter). The skill in general is worthless when you can go full defensive (no attacking but +4 AC instead of, no attacking and a 30% chance to block attacks). It also doesn't exist in D&D, so I don't know who thought it up... it's like implementing Knockdown instead of trip!

Mon, 18th Dec '06, 10:53am	#5
Sir Fink SPS Account Holder Cogito ergo doleo Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Korea Posts: 576 Like: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts vBActivity - Stats XP: 1,498 Level: 13 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 8.62% Daily Activity 2.98% Weekly Activity 1.28% Monthly Activity 2.11% Achievements	I can only say I tested out a Duelist character in a module and was pretty impressed. At high levels, with high DEX and good equipment, basically nothing was touching my Duelist and she was reposting like mad. But yes, I wouldn't bother with the skill unless you're focused on a light (or no) armor wearing, DEX-based character.

Tue, 19th Dec '06, 3:47am	#6
Skywind Gems: 10/31 Latest gem: Zircon Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Sleeping forest Posts: 353 Like: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts vBActivity - Stats XP: 1,327 Level: 12 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 39.76% Daily Activity 2.98% Weekly Activity 1.28% Monthly Activity 2.11% Achievements	Even while wearing light armour, there will be penalty for parry?

Tue, 19th Dec '06, 10:02am	#7
Sir Fink SPS Account Holder Cogito ergo doleo Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Korea Posts: 576 Like: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts vBActivity - Stats XP: 1,498 Level: 13 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 8.62% Daily Activity 2.98% Weekly Activity 1.28% Monthly Activity 2.11% Achievements	I assume so. Look at the armor's stats and it should say whether there is a skill-check penalty. Studded Leather, for example, has -1 while Leather and Padded have zero.

Tue, 19th Dec '06, 12:10pm	#8
chevalier SPS Account Holder Senior News Editor Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: I wish I were in the land of coffee... Posts: 16,675 Like: 2 Liked 1 Time in 1 Post vBActivity - Stats XP: 62,754 Level: 62 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 24.52% Daily Activity 2.98% Weekly Activity 1.28% Monthly Activity 2.11% Achievements	Don't know if the game has one, but AFAIK mithral chainmail should count as light armour and offer little penalty to checks.