Turkey and EU

[BOC]

Tommorow the leaders of the nations of the EU will decide if they set a date for accession talks with Turkey in order to become a member of EU in 15 years. There is a lot of skepticism among the european goverments and citizens about this. The majority of the citizens and many governments seem to be negative to the idea of a full turkish membership. They base their negative opinion on many reasons like that Turkey is not a european country, that there are many cultural differences, that the economic cost will be to high, that the balances in EU will change etc. So what do you think? Should Turkey become a member of EU or not?

[Wordplay]

I think they should be granted a fair chance despite the fact that I'm highly skeptical of muslims (a.k.a "Blow-me-up-dolls") and Turkey isn't exactly that developed country. Of course, every european always thinks that HIS country is the most developed one, so that really isn't a reason to say 'no.' Before voting, I would ask how they would guard their borders against illegal immigrants that come from the poor countries? How they are going to deal with the religiously zealous people? Human rights? Economy?

If those all were okay, why not? Expanding the union will mean that there will be more trade and perhaps in the future one more country to participate to the coming EU-forces (there will be one, that's for sure). So to answer your question: if Turkey meets those demands, I would vote yes.

[joacqin]

I dont support a set date but a continuance of the talks and perhaps a gradual entrance into the various agreement would be an idea. I am all for a bigger, stronger and more tightly knit EU. Borders and nationalities are so yesterday.

[Darkthrone]

Like

"Bob, are we going to get married or not?"
"Yeah, well, of course we are, baby! I don't support a set date but a continuance of the talks and perhaps a gradual entrance into the various agreement would be an idea."



I say: let them in, make a commitment. Offer them something so they have any reason do follow the wise path of Finland Wirhe proposed.

[Dendri]

Absolutely not.
And why would we want for them to join us?!
So, some of them have that urge. The USA wants them a part of the EU, too.

Not much of an argument there. Nor is this an opportunity to care for the wishes of others, rather to have our own interests and future in mind.

There are many reasons to deny them membership. Too many. BOC listed them.

One I would like to add.
They blackmail us.
"Deny us and there could be outrage and unrest among the Turks in your countries" "Deny us and 'democratic' developements in Turkey may be in danger" The nerve!
For these rhetorics alone we should kiss them goodbye for they show clearly what fakes they are. They lack the grown political culture and insight needed to be a part of Europe - which they are not anyway.
It strikes me that democracy isnt a value in itself for Turkey but something to barter with. Nor are the reforms the EU *forced* on them. Reforms hastily implemented which have not grown out of a social/political need and understanding. Reforms that dont mirror their values, thus are not a part of their lifes. Reforms that are nothing but means to an end. Meaningless reforms.

Sorry, but I am not convinced by their so called progress.
Let a non-european country (in more ways than one) join, a country that will soon have the largest population in the EU - and deal the EU a crippling blow.

[Pac man]

Turkey doesn't belong in Europe...period.

Different people, different culture, different religeon, different view on human rights, etc...

If they allow the Turks, you might just as well invite the Japanese, the Australians, the Papuas of New Guinee, hell...why not ask everyone to join and become one big cheesy family.

[Wordplay]

Actually, inviting Asia wouldn't be that bad idea either. It IS one of the growing economies of this world and if Turkey would join; they probably could get their engines started too. More trade = more wealth = higher living-standards for us all. Simply rejecting them because they live a bit differently is no reason at all. Turkey is just one country and every country in the union will take influence from the others at least in some degree. If you are afraid of their religion, ask yourself; how long it can hold on in a quickly modernized country? Not for long, as religion is a thing of past, thus THEY should actually fear the union more than us.

Cultures should not be feared: they will not suddenly "jump" at you.

[Pac man]

I'd rather be jumped by a long legged blonde female if it's all the same with you.

[Carcaroth]

Different people, different culture, different religion

Are not adequate reasons for preventing people entering the EU in any way. The same could be said of most of the countries. (Even religion if you seperate Protestant and Catholic). However I agree their history on human rights, especially the Kurds, should give a reason for pause.

Economically, their inclusion will likely strengthen the EU. There is a huge amount of money going into infrastructure and construction which is generally a good indication of economic growth.

[Dendri]

Then I dont see why we call it European Union.
In my opinion the borders of Europe are defined by geography AND values.
Different people/cultures obviously dont share these values... or else they wouldnt be called different.
Someone can start a Global Union if they feel like beginning a hopless political process. I wish for the EU to succeed.

Plus we can do trade and all that with Turkey as it is. No need to let them join for economic reasons.

[Shadowdrinker]

Although i cant believe what i read about Turkey here in this forum,i know we as Turks usually have a bad image in Europe.But that is so because we cant explain ourselves rightly.I suggest people,who have bad ideas about Turkey,just to come visit a city in Turkey once and meet some modern turkish people.You can also read some history of this country and see it has been a secular and democratic regime for over 80 years.People tend to believe Turkey is just like any other middle-eastern country like Iran and Syria it is deffinetly not true.Europeans accuse us of being non-democratic.but you must see that democracy is a neverending process. and today we can see non-democratic devolopments in the so-called "modern and civilized" european countries as an example lately it has been proven that the english government has put many people in jail without having a trial just because he thinks they are terrorist (i dont say they are not but you know everyone is innocent until proven guilty),and what about Berlusconi the prime minister of Italy,he has many accusations against him and somehow he keeps on escaping from them.There are many more examples of such non-democratic developments in europe.I gave them not to say you are like us and you are putting double standards but to explain that democracy is a process.I also want to clear out the thing that was said about the situation with the Kurds.We have had kurdish parlimentarians and even prime ministers in Turkey.I ask you if we really hated kurds,would we have elected them?

[Darkthrone]

Right you are, Shadowdrinker!

Shame on you others, though! What have you got in your hands?

a) Economics. Ha! If that was anything to measure EU member wannabes by, then we'd embrace Turkey wholeheartedly and rather reject Poland or the Czech Republic. Or Germany, if it comes ot that .
b) Different Cultures. Cf. Carcoroth's statement.
c) Turkey is not part of Europe. What? Of course it is. Ever been to Istanbul? There's Europe inside, I tell you! Even historically Turkey has always been among the big players in Europe.
d) Religion. Yeah, sure. So all of a sudden, Chechenya or Kazakhstan are not Europe any more as well?

Best part is

Reforms that are nothing but means to an end. Meaningless reforms.

Sorry, Dendri. You'd be happier if they still had death penalty just so you'd feel the changes would be more gradual and organic? Bollocks!

[toughluck]

Darkthrone - the traditional definition of Europe included only what lay to the Bosfor, and to Ural. So, no, Kazakhstan and Chechnya have NEVER been considered part of Europe. Same for Turkey, which is part of Asia Minor (still not Middle East, mind you).

[Shadowdrinker]

Is it really important where you come from?Ural mountains are in Asia so europeans are also asians.so who is a real european?the world is becoming smaller with each passing day.I also would like to say that Geography doesnt draw the borderlines but people do.

[Dendri]

Too bad that Turkey is a wee bit larger than Istanbul, Darkthrone. No zoning out of archaic Anatolia, please. I will not accept a nation that might soon have 100 million citizens for the sake of one (admittetly impressive) city.

Deathpenalty? Okay, they got rid of it. Then you will consider it a major progress that there is no longer systematic use of torture, too.
Doing one step away from the dark ages doesnt make Turkey a nation that upholds european standards of human rights.

[Carcaroth]

As it happens Shadowdrinker, I have Turkish relatives on both sides of my family. I don't think they are in any way a non-democratic country. I am also disgusted with the way that the British government is acting on the "war on terror" by locking people up without trial. And also how the Italian premier would appear to be a complete crook. (Although the Italian system is probably not as corrupt now as it was made out to be 20-odd years ago).
I also didn't state you hated Kurds, but some of the reporting by the BBC (I have nothing else to go on) does question how human rights are being abused. I have included a couple of examples.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3370079.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3203016.stm

Having said that, the European Comission now states:

Human rights: "Concerning ... the respect of human rights and the exercise of fundamental freedoms, Turkey has acceded to most relevant international and European conventions."

I can not really see any reasons for Turkey not joining the EU, depending on what their response is to the Cypress question.

Dendri
I think I'm right in saying that at least part of Turkey is within Europe, as the divide between Europe and Asia is the Bosphorus, Turkey (and Istanbul) is on both sides. French Guiana in South America is included as being part of France, that's a wee bit further afield.

The EU (or EC as it was then) was created after WW2 to provide economic links between countires to prevent the chance of was between them. I don't understand why you think the EU fail by including another country? The only reason I can see the EU failing is for economic reasons, but you say there's no reason to let them join for economic reasons, therefore it also shouldn't be a barrier to entry. The EU has it's set of values laid out which Turkey will need to show compliance to in order to attain membership. I think the chances of them throwing out those values having gained membership are fairly slim.
Refusing entry because of ethnic differences smacks of racism. As far as I'm aware, the EU is not supposed to be a "club" to give us an economic advantage over other people.

[Iago]

I don't see anything none-European about Turkey. If Turkey isn't European, what about Finland, Hungary, Ireland, Serbia, Albania, Greece, Spain, Malta, Iceland, Italy (the south of it). All this countries can hardly be called European, can't they.

Santa Claus is a Turk. Fair enough to consider Turkey European. I have more doubts about Russia.

And for the state of the Turkish political system. Wouldn't be the first that has to go a long way from rather questionable beginnings. Italy, Spain, Portugal and Germany seized their chance, why shouldn't the Turks ?

And the one and only classic and true definition of Europe is, that Asia begins at the Landstrasse.

[toughluck]

We can always argue that a European country is one that lies in the Old World and has adopted either Roman or Greek law system.

As for Turkeys: I don't think turkeys should have any special rights in the EU. If people want to eat them, I think they should. I don't think turkeys should become EU citizens, mainly because they are of different species.

[Takara]

If they are allowed an entry in the Eurovision song contest, then they are a part of Europe for me.

Same goes for the other two great European nations: Russia and Isreal.

[Morgoroth]

As long as Turkish authtorities practise torture and Turkey refuses to accept the Greek Cyprus they have no business in EU. When these things are taken care of then Turkey should be accepted as a EU member as any other nation. Besides France is practically dragging Romania to the EU which has a lot more serious problems than Turkey.

[Dendri]

Racial aspects are not my concern.
You will have noticed that I wasnt arguing from that point of view, Carcaroth. I would be grateful not to read bullpoo like racism in this thread.

I don't understand why you think the EU fail by including another country?

Values and traditions, however, are what worries me. As well as the political unision of the EU - which is destined to be about more than money.
I dont see how Europe will unite politically with Turkey. Never mind that the Turks dont have the intention for that but are mainly interested in the economic benefits the EU has to offer.

The only reason I can see the EU failing is for economic reasons, but you say there's no reason to let them join for economic reasons, therefore it also shouldn't be a barrier to entry.

Turkey is already a participant of Europe's free trade area. There would be no additional benefit for them by joining the EU in matters of trade.

But who should pay for the subsidiaries that Turkey has a right to as a member? What is your solution there? Not giving them any aid at all and letting a huge underdevloped country join?
The net payers of the EU cannot even afford to help develope the ten new members. Let alone a giant like Turkey.

And what about Europe's secular political system and them Turks having elected an islamic government? Speaking of Europe and its values...

Oh well.

[joacqin]

The borders of the sub-continent of Europe have always been a bit hazy. If we look culturally and historically the history of Europe has been as closely tied to what is now Turkey as it has been to what is Spain. The Ottoman Empire was called the sick man of Europe you know. Looking even further back the Roman and Greek empires both saw Turkey as part of more or less their heart land.

[Pac man]

Well, as long as there aren't any drastic changes overthere, they shouldn't be allowed in. The army still has way too much influence to call it a real democracy. There have been some Turkish political refugees here in the Netherlands that made it very clear that Turkey is still deceiving everyone. And then there's still the issue with the Kurds and the Armenians.

They don't need us and we certainly don't need them, so why change anything ?

[Carcaroth]

Dendri, the statement on racism was not directed at you, hence it was in a seperate paragraph. But when people state different culture, different people and different religions as valid reasons for not including someone then yes, it comes across as racism, whether inteded or not. You mention subsidies, well I actually object to the whole concept of subsidies, particularly because Britain is asked to pay lots of them, but gets nothing in return.

The EC's findings on torture:

Torture: "The authorities have adopted a zero tolerance policy towards torture and a number of perpetrators have been punished. Torture is no longer systematic, but numerous cases of ill-treatment, including torture, still continue to occur and further efforts will be required to eradicate such practices."

I'd like to know which particular values and traditions are being called into question that Turkey doesn't share, and actually how they would affect the EU and how it works. The ones I think are important, are those which the EU has concerns about, and unless these concerns are allayed then I don't see Turkey being accepted, however if they are allayed then I can see no reason to prevent access.

Politically, the EU countries are very rarely in unison anyway. And the point is that Turkey ELECTED it's government. I find it difficult to believe that many of the European governments do not have one religious bent or other.

[Pac man]

For starters, Turkey is Islamic, we are Christian. How many examples do you need to realise that the two don't click ?