Keldorn romance -- proofreading help needed

[Baronius]

Keldorn NPC

Friendship and possibly romance with Keldorn, expanded unexplored plot lines in relationships with Maria, Anomen and few other NPCs. New areas & battles and a new quest are also included.

Quoting Senka:

I'd like to ask for help. TOB-part is already translated (from Russian), and I seek proof-reading. This is a 23-page Word document. Please fell free to ask me here or in private

Of course, you can also post it here if you can offer a hand, and I will inform Senka about it.


Thank you very much in advance for any help!

[T2Bruno]

Now that's just wrong....

Does the protagonist help destroy Keldorn's marriage (only to get the wife out of the way)?

[Ilmater's Suffering]

Hey, who hasn't wanted to play as a home wrecker at some point? Keldorn IS an older, established man after all...

[Elfen Lied]

Now that's just wrong....

worse than a Minsc romance?

[Cal Jones]

Mm well I guess some girls like the idea of a silver daddy.

[Decados]

I do recall reading about the possibility of this mod coming into existance, didn't realise that someone(s) were actually working on it. I like Keldorn, so I'd be interested in playing this when it comes out.

While I would be willing to help proof-read, that would inevitably spoil the surprise when I play it. Which is a shame.

worse than a Minsc romance?

Point.

[Baronius]

FYI, the proofreading problem has been solved meanwhile.

Now that's just wrong....

Does the protagonist help destroy Keldorn's marriage (only to get the wife out of the way)?

It's surely no problem for you to kill (= take the lives of) people in BG2, but to ruin a marriage, that's something much more terrible than murder, sure!

By the way, it can be solved that you don't have to destroy the marriage (because it ends in a different way, but I'm not sure about the developer's plans so don't ask me, I just heard modders speaking somewhere about it).

[Decados]

It's surely no problem for you to kill (= take the lives of) people in BG2, but to ruin a marriage, that's something much more terrible than murder, sure!

It has always amused me that people are absolutely fine with commiting genocide on various races simply because they are there (and Keldorn is seen as the racist!) in addition to carving a bloody swath through their own people, but raise topics like incest, rape or even breaking a marriage and they start to get unhappy. Think about this: if marriage is approximately as common in Faerun as on Earth, how many of those nameless soldiers and guards have left behind grieving wives who have just discovered their loved one will not be coming home after all.

That wasn't aimed particuarly at you Bruno; it was just a commentry on the mindset of gamers.

[Ilmater's Suffering]

Originally Posted by Decados

It has always amused me that people are absolutely fine with commiting genocide on various races simply because they are there (and Keldorn is seen as the racist!) in addition to carving a bloody swath through their own people, but raise topics like incest, rape or even breaking a marriage and they start to get unhappy. Think about this: if marriage is approximately as common in Faerun as on Earth, how many of those nameless soldiers and guards have left behind grieving wives who have just discovered their loved one will not be coming home after all.

That wasn't aimed particuarly at you Bruno; it was just a commentry on the mindset of gamers.

Ah, but D+D takes all the moral ambiguity out of violence. There is definitive evil in the world, as illustrated by one's moral alignment. Furthermore, the paragons of justice, the archons, have no hesitation about slaying evil, in order to prevent it from harming the innocent. By the system of D+D, the truly good hero prevents the villain from returning to harm the populous, while the not so heroic hero takes pity on the villain and allows him or her to go and have another chance at harming the innocent (yea, I'm taking to you NWN and your good path). Besides how would Tyr still have a job as a LG deity if calling for the death of evil creatures simply because they deserve to be punished for their alignment if such actions weren't good?

On the otherhand, breaking up Keldorn's marriage is a selfish act and therefore moves you closer to NE. Slaying a tyrant is not a selfish act (unless you intend merely to replace him yourself) and spares others from his or her tyranny is therefore good. It's best not ask questions about violence in D+D for the alignment system is one big and crazy justification for it.

[Decados]

True, Ilmater's Suffering, true. However, I was not referring to how the players' characters would see killing, but how the players do. Regardless of how killing is seen in D&D, I would guess that most RL people do not view morality in quite the same way. We don't take D&D ethics as our own when we play the game. Don't get me wrong- we should probably play the characters as though they accept this point of view, but our personal views are not likely to change.

I suspect that I am starting to ramble away from my original point, so I will state simply: we, as gamers, do not see killing as anything out of the ordinary, yet reject acts such as those I mentioned earlier. We don't reject because our characters would (although they might), but because of our own sense of morality.

Anyways, this is moving away from the topic at hand, so I'll be quiet now and hope that people have more to say on the Keldorn Romance mod.

[Baronius]

As there haven't been too many updates recently regarding this mod, I think the possible few comments will fit nicely in this topic despite the partially offtopic tendency.

I also think Ilmater's Suffering has good points there. However, the fact players happily kill others in the game while some less serious acts raise doubts in them rather roots in the words "game" and "real life" itself. That is, it's an everyday event, a usual thing to slay tens of creatures in BG2, so it's not a complicated thing or something that would need deep consideration. For most players, murder and killing is a distant thing, something which only exists in movies and games (where it's totally natural, on the contrary).

Marriage and romance, on the other hand, is an existing element of their real life and it's close to people, so they tend to treat it more sensitively in the game too. Not too surprisingly, this is especially true to ladies who play BG2, or even make NPC mods for it. Some NPC mods are created exclusively because a romance can be included in them (and it's obviously OK, each mod is created for some primary reason that tempts the author -- e.g. I love quests with twists and battles, some people love to find things that can be FIXED somehow, etc.)

So real roleplaying can only be done by putting apart our everyday notions and customs, but of course RP-specific criteria (such as alignment) should also be met (i.e. chosen wisely).

[Fly2tHeSkY]

So.. considering the protagonist is around 20 years (about?) and Keldorn is about 60ish AND married..

Don't get me started..

Btw are paladins even allowed to DO that

[Elfen Lied]

Keldorn is 55, well as best Felinoid can figure it.

NPC Ages

[Decados]

So.. considering the protagonist is around 20 years (about?) and Keldorn is about 60ish AND married..

Don't get me started..

And they say love knows no barriers. If so, it evidently hasn't met Silvershield then.

[Cal Jones]

Well, Keldorn's epitah talks about what happens to him in his 60th year, which is some time after the events of ToB. I think one can safely conclude that he is somewhere in his 50s. 55 would be about right.
And btw...it's not too old for romance (though that would be some age gap!) Quite a lot of younger women do go for silver daddies, and Keldorn is a noble...

[Elfen Lied]

but raise topics like incest, rape or even breaking a marriage and they start to get unhappy.

I think that partially depends on the characters involved, those things were fairly common in the time period Fae'run is roughly based in, so prehaps it's not so much people have an issue with those things but rather the character in those situations. Some people like the naive, will do anything for charname Imoen, but they might not be so fond of seeing her in a more romantic light. But such a thing would not be uncommon, they are just so used to a character being cast in a certain light, they are not so welcoming to change, not matter how fun the romance mod might be to play.

Think about this: if marriage is approximately as common in Faerun as on Earth, how many of those nameless soldiers and guards have left behind grieving wives who have just discovered their loved one will not be coming home after all.

Reminds me of that scene in the first Austin Powers, where then henchman got killed and it cuts to his buddies at hooters who get a phone call informing them he just died.

"any of you guys seen smity?"
"He's a henchman for doctor Evil, some times they work late"
Waitress comes up to group and saysthere is a phone call for them.
"Smity's not coming, he dead"
"How?"
"He was decapitated by a mutated Sea Bass"
"To Smity! *Raises glass*"

[Decados]

The character involved might make a bit of difference, but I believe that it will not fully account for the opposition to those themes.

I'll use an example (and therefore slight spoilers follow): there is a NWN module called A Dance With Rogues. In the opening scenes of this module the female PC gets raped.

Despite only knowing your character's name and a very vague history (much of the character's personality is left to the player), I seem to recall people objecting. Note that this is before they got to know the character. Additionally, there were negative comments about the presence of sexual options later in the mod. These dialogue options were voluntary, but people were still bothered.

[Baronius]

Of course, it's another matter that roleplaying in this AD&D, medieval, dungeons & dragons & heroes or whatever-we-call-it world, is like participating in a story, in a tale (can be a dark tale). Its stylistic requirements, or at least the player's expectations include the lack of "everyday", ordinary, or irrelevant events. That is, your characters don't drink (except in taverns and except potions) and don't eat, and don't chat (displayed banters aren't ordinary; "Look out, Aerie, there is a snake near your leg" isn't said in a forest, at least not displayed by the game even if it happens). And these things aren't just for gameplay ease.

Similarly, many players don't like to see rape, or even any normal sexual options. It doesn't mean that eating, drinking, sex etc. cannot be there (and this is true to non-joinable NPCs as well), but it's not "told", displayed in this "tale", because it's irrelevant and may be illusion-ruining. Legends and tales speak about heros and great (or horrible) deeds. Rape, for example, isn't an uncommon event in a war. Yet, from the viewpoint of a tale, it isn't like winning a great battle by cruelly taking the lives of thousands of young men.

Generally, players have objections with anything that doesn't fit their picture of the game.

[Cal Jones]

Fact is, people play games for fun. A lot of people play games to escape from the hum drum nature of their own lives but some also play to forget their own troubles.

I've just quit UO after seven good years. In that game, emoting rape on another character, or even joking about it, would get you banned pretty smartish. I should think the same is true of nearly all MMOs. Within the RP community, it was an unspoken role - interrogations, punishment and torture were all OK, within reason, provided that there was nothing sexual. Your avatar is an extension of yourself, and even if your character's background story is nothing like your own, you still identify enough with that character that an assault on them could make you feel violated. Sex in games is fine if handled appropriately, but as a woman, I wouldn't be happy playing a rape victim - or a rapist for that matter.

As for infidelity, well, we already have Keldorn's wife fooling around with Sir William - you can always encourage him to follow his code of honour and have her thrown in jail. Not very nice, but he's lawful good - his initial reaction is to have he jailed and William hanged and he only changes his mind when the PC encourages him along a more reasonable path.

Still, I'm not sure Keldorn would feel too happy about romance after that...but then Jaheira got it on with the PC not long after her beloved husband was found dead and mutilated. The BG world is not the real world.

[Anjo]

I think nobody shouldn't judge a mod before playing it. We don't have any idea how modders have written plot for the romance, if it's well written I can see it happen. I admit Keldorn isn't first NPC I could think of romanceable (sp?) but I'm curious to see how it turns out.

[Decados]

Amen, Anjo, amen.

[Ilmater's Suffering]

I think the biggest boundary for adding your character being raped as something to do with how to play it. In BG2, you don't have to figure out how your character rationalized initial violence. At this point violence is common place, the character's mind merely accepts it as something that happened. Now dealing with the aftermath of a rape is something wildly different. I don't want to try to role play my character's fear of members of the sex that raped him or her, I don't want to deal with my character's withdrawal from the world or how sex is now viewed as a painful experience and is something to avoid. It takes a aberrantly strong mind to not make a personality shift when victim of a stranger rape. I think a module in which one can get into sexual relations following a stranger rape is rather inappropriate as rape survivors aren't apt to do such a think in real life. If you want a module where your character gets raped, make it realistic, make the conversations betray the character's distrust for those who resemble the rapist, make them have odd reactions to whose who seemingly make sexual comments, make it almost impossible for your character sleep at night (like a, say 75% chance of not getting enough sleep to be fully healed or such), etc... this isn't something that is simply going to pass by most characters who haven't been able to externalize their sexuality (i.e. non-sexual workers).

I'd certainly think that breaking up Keldorn's marriage for the fun it is in no way can ever compare to making my character cut down a beggar for the fun of it, but you are essentially putting an upper class woman with no means of supporting herself out on the street and that needs to be taken into account. That's the biggest issue with breaking up marriages is that usually someone is dependent on the other for financial wellbeing.

As for (unprecipitated) violence v rape, I think you can make the case for either one being worse then the other, assuming you don't ascribe to a survivor's mentality. Unfortunately do to aspects of society, villains, like Joseph Stalin, are perfectly fine, but having villains, like the Hillside Strangler, aren't. I personally think, however, if used appropriately (such as knowing, but not seeing), a murder, who is a rapist as well, is a more vile victim, for he not only ends lives, but dominates them utterly before doing so. Could add an interesting (horrifically interesting that is) spin to BG2 if a villain if say, kidnapped and then threatened to have PC's romantic interest violated if PC didn't ignore said minions ravaging the countryside and deal with such and such instead. If the villain simply murdered the NPC, great, here comes resurrection or even if NPC is permanently dead, there is closure in that. The raped NPC isn't dead and their continued presence serves as a constant reminder of the failure (likely end to the romance as well as NPC isn't interested in sex any more, blames you for what happened to them, or in Anomen's case, wild bouts of self-destruction). Mind you, if you save your loved one, countless innocents are killed by marauding minions.

Arguably stuff takes the simplicity out of it for the casual gamer, but makes evil much more potent. Similarly why I like having villains mutilate certain NPCs rather then kill them (how does the town belle do when she's suddenly the ugliest girl in down because of her disfigurement), truly evil villains do more then just end lives, they destroy whatever sanity and dignity the individual had. Sorry, I've gotten to use to the Book of Vile Darkness and Horror Campaigns.

Anyway, I think on a bit of an about face twist, rather then asking why violence is ok in fantasy, I'd like to ask why other forms of depravity aren't available for the depiction of a truly evil character. Vile characters are interesting in despoiling life. Which is more evil? The villain who kills his enemies or the villain who cannibalizes the flesh of his enemies in order to strike back at his enemies' loved ones by denying or defiling the body for burial. It's rather annoying that evil should be dictated by parent's concerns about what is acceptable. Acceptable evil doesn't really feel evil as it's bland and contrived. A lawful evil gentleman knight merely steps on peasants. These types of villains are great for short modules made for NWN or PnP, but are rarely worthy of campaigns. NWN OC does a great job of making use of villains who act as head villains, but aren't worthy of this task.

What? I'm not on the Material Plane anymore? I'm in the Gray Wastes of Hades you say? Damn it.

[Klorox]

I can just picture it now: Keldorn having problems in bed and asking somebody to cast a stoneskin on certain areas!

[Decados]

Gah! My mental eyesight is disfigured!

Damn you Klorox!

[cmorgan]

I thought that was "Harper's Call" - or perhaps "Resserection"...