Archers are not the best missilers

There's been a lot of Archer threads recently, well here's another one... "Why Archer's suck"...


Level 13 Kensai using Dwarven Thrower (that throwing hammer you buy in Trademeet)
Damage:
2d4+3 (weapon)
+3 (grandmastery, +5 if you use old BG tables)
+4 (kit bonus)
+6 (18/00 strength, +9 with Girdle of Frost Giant Strength)
------------------
18 - 24 damage

max damage @ 3 1/2 attacks per round = 84


Level 13 Archer using Heartseeker Bow
Damage:
1d6+2 (arrow + damage bonus from Heartseeker)
+3 (grandmastery)
+4 (kit bonus)
+0 (no STR bonus, doesn't apply for bows or crossbows or slings!)
------------------
10 - 15 damage

max damage @ 4 1/2 attacks per round = 67.5


Why bother with an Archer? The Kensai can do more damage and can even use Kai to guarantee that 84 damage per round, much more useful than Called Shot... do you want to kill something? or just lower it's THAC0 or STR for awhile?. Plus, if necessary Kensai can switch to melee where he will do TONS more damage than an Archer.

You could also use the Firetooth dagger (2d4+3 +1d2) to do even more damage... with Kai on over 100 damage per round.

[Edit: got some numbers wrong]



[This message has been edited by Mirkwood (edited November 14, 2001).]

[Faragon]

Well, you 'could' look at it from a roleplaying point of view... Damage isn't everything you know...

If you want damage, use cromfraeyr.

[Big B]

1) Doesn't being an elf and having a high Dexterity, factor into all that somewhere?

2) You didn't consider an archer with a good shortbow, possibly getting enough attacks per round that the total adds up to be more. And what about the Bracers of Archery?

3) Finally, what is a kensai doing with a dwarven thrower?????
a)They aren't supposed to use missle weapons (yeah yeah this one gets by, but still it is the concept of throwing something rather than being a "master of one-on-one combat" and using melee weapons)
b)Dwarven Thrower is a warhammer. Kensais are SWORD saints. So not only is this example Kensai going around throwing things, (completely opposite to how he was trained) he has wasted proficientcy slots on a weapon that isn't even a sword. Wohooo go "Mr. I'm a Kensai, but you'd never know by looking at me!" .

Whatever man. Archers can even cast lvl 1-4 Priest Spells and Hide In Shadows. And those options aren't even exploitable by kensais. Tough luck.

[This message has been edited by Big B (edited November 14, 2001).]

[Blackthorne TA]

You also neglected to account for all the different magical arrows that Heartseeker can throw. +1, +2, Acid, Fire, Ice, Piercing, Biting etc. that can add quite a bit to the damage you're reporting.

[Ragusa]

I agree to BTA - and consider equiping your archer with a heavy crossbow (means: 1d8 damage per round).
With special arrows and bolts the archer will definitely look better ...

-arrows of piercing: 1d6 + 6 piercing damage each hit (when st vs death fails) ...
-arrows of biting: 1d6 + 30% of actual hitpoints damade within 30 sec if st vs death fails ...

-bolts of biting: 1d8 + 30 damage within 15 sec if st vs deat fails
-bolts of lightning: 1d8 + 4d4 electrical damage ...
-kua-toa bolt: 2d6 + stunned for 4 rounds if st vs paralysation fails
-sahuagin bolt: 1d10 damage + paralysation when st vs parlysation fails ...

now recalcualate your statement

st = saving throw/ vs = versus

[This message has been edited by Ragusa (edited November 14, 2001).]

[Neitsabes-Naej]

Mirkwood:
Thinking that way (mathematic strategy) you should be palying diablo2 not BG2 (wich is a role playing game remember???A kensai with a Dwarven throwing hammer???)

AND if so, don't forget to analyse ALL
possibilties a class can have....
For example:
Elf have a bonus using bow, shortsword and longsword.
Archer are rangers (spell ? hide in shadow?)
Using other arrows than normal arrows as other said (my god I'm beginnning to understand why you find they suck...Don't you use other arrows than normal ??!!)
They have called shot.

[Ragusa]

Ahem,

[EDIT: Check things before posting ]

PS: I'm not lording anyone , I'm just ill tempered and hasty

[This message has been edited by Ragusa (edited November 15, 2001).]

[wittynewt]

Hi,

Well elves get the bonuses in my game. I have an elven kensai and human kensai, languishing in Irenicus's dungeon waiting for me to decide which one to play on. Both with the same strength, proficiencies and levels and the elf has one better THACO than the human in long swords.

Its so easy to check as well, just turn on the "see rolls" option or check the THACO score in the record sheet with the weapon equiped.

The only way I can explain the difference is down to the racial bonuses mentioned in the manual and race descriptions on the character generation screen.

I don't know for elves and bows although I suspect they do, I created an elven archer the other day and played her through dungeon 1 to test her out and I when I checked the THACO I think I had an extra 1 that I put down to race. I'll go back and check.

(I just checked the katana and the thaco is one better for the elf as well... Hmmm, I definitely need to do some more checking on this.)

Create a couple of characters if you want and check for yourself and verify my findings, it is entirely possible I have screwed up in my observation somewhere and would welcome a second opinion.

My elf characters got the same bonuses in BG1 as well. I haven't done any experimentation yet to see how narrow the "sword" reference is in BG2 since the weapon classes have diverged since BG1 but long swords certainly work for elves. (Just found out that katanas seem count as "long swords")

I am pretty sure my halfing also got the +1 bonus in slings in BG1. Haven't played a halfing in BG2 yet though.

As to the archer/kensai throwing discussion,

1. you need to also remember range is greater for bows than thrown weapons and hence you will possibly get more shots off before the monster closes with a bow depending on how you engage.
2. As others have mentioned, kensai is meant to be a melee only fighter, throwing is an "undocumented feature"
3. Don't forget the strongarm bow +3 damage if you have 19 strength (hill strength gridle) or the sling of seeking! adds strength bonus. An archer will get his THACO/DAMAGE benefit from any missile weapon, I know this is stretching the archer term a little but the game allows it. I have thought of creating a halfing slinger recently, create an archer and change class to halfing and have proficiency in slings. Equip with sling of seeking and gridle and that is one mean halfpint. You might like that one Ragusa knowing how you like your heroes compact and bijou.
4. Someone already mentioned the bracers of archery, what about the other things an archer can use that a kensai can't, better AC, bracers of ligthing strike, lots of thaco/damage enhancing gaunlets.
5. had to mention arrows just to echo others comments, you pick up so many magical arrows of various descriptions that after chapter 1 I stop using normal arrows in my parties bows.
6. Don't forget called shot, at lvl 13 your archer will reduce the strength, thaco and save versus magic of the tragte by 1 for every shot they make in 10 seconds (1.67 rounds).

The way I see it the archer is still the consumate ranged weapon specialist and the kensai is still the melee weapon specialist.

I really don't like that wagging finger.....

I post back some updated findings on the race stuff later if I get some time tonight.

Cheers,

WittyNewt

Ok, half an hour later I have checked up and made some interesting findings, would be grateful if someone could confirm this by expt as I could well have made a mistake.

I used SK to do some expts on my two kensai and made sure there important stats were equal. Two kensai fighters, one elf, the other human, both with 19 strength, both level 8, both base THACO 13 (straight from level cf PNP DND).

Set all sword wpn prof to 5, used plain non magical weapons, thacos are listed next to wpn, haven't checked damage yet.

human
dagger 6
s sword 6
scimitar 6
katana 6
l sword 6
b sword 6
2 sword 6

elf
dagger 6
s sword 5
scimitar 5
katana 5
l sword 5
b sword 5
2 sword 5

Hence, for all bladed sword like wpns except daggers elves get +1 THACO. You can see how we get from base THACO 13 to 6 for human
+3 strength, +2 class bonus, +2 grand master = 7, 13-7 =6
elf has 13-7 -1 =5 note the extra 1.

Now for some "proper" wpns, set prof to 1 for all wpns for both characters to give another datapoint without repeating.

human
+1 dagger 7
+1 ninja do 7
+ belm 6
+2 Namara 6
+3 Fury 5
+2 chaos 6

elf+1 dagger 7
+1 ninja do 6
+ belm 5
+2 Namara 5
+3 Fury 4
+2 chaos 5

kept the dagger+1 in for normalisation, on other weapons elf always scores one better.

I love elves,

For completeness, my game is SOA plus TOB, plus latest patch plus baldurdash 1.12.

Now can I be bothered to check slings for halfingas and bows for elves or shall I play my elf fighter/thief through planar prison? tough call.

Cheers,

WittyNewt.

[This message has been edited by wittynewt (edited November 14, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by wittynewt (edited November 14, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by wittynewt (edited November 14, 2001).]

1. A Kensai using hammers
I can make a Dwarf Kensai, what the hell is he gonna use?! Katanas? Long swords? A dwarf wouldn't be seen dead weilding that ****.

I could make the same argument about an archer using a crossbow, to me it doesn't fit the description of an 'Archer'. An Archer using a sling is even more ridiculous, you better not let Cespenar see that sling you've got grandmastery in, you'll be laughed out of hell.

The "sword saint" description of the Kensai is just a way of saying that a Kensai is a master with a weapon, not necessarily that it's a sword.

Oh, and the hammer was just an example, there are other throwing weapons too - Rifthome and Azuredge axes, Firetooth and Boomerang daggers.

2. A Kensai using throwing weapons
What is the problem with this? The game allows it. Could you please point me to where Bioware have stated it is an 'undocumented feature'?

And how about this character for all you people who like to spout nonsense arguments about roleplaying - Kensai Halfling weilding throwing daggers - makes a perfect roleplaying character IMO.


Equipment - THAC0 enhancers are not much point since Kensai gets good THAC0 anyway. There are very few items that give damage bonuses, and it will only be +1 or +2, nothing like the +9 gained from the Girdle of Frost Giant Strength.

Kai vs Called Shot - it's no contest IMO, Kai is far more useful.

To all the other arguments... special arrows, crossbows, spells, elves (gah, yuk!, kill em all! I hate elves)... yes in some situations your archer may do more damage but the Kensai will CONSISTENTLY do more damage.

Cheers

[wittynewt]

Hi Mirkwood,

I have no issues with anything you do, its your game. I was just pointing out some other things to consider in your analysis to see if your argument still holds.

The point about range might be the clincher for me, but that all depends on the engagement, if youw alk round the corner and find yourself 5 yard away then maybe I should reach for that hammer.

If the term sword saint is not to be taken too literally, then the same can be said for "archer" a term used to describe a missile expert in the same way as kensai is used to describe a melee expert.

A expert halfing slinger certainly makes a good roleplay. In the same way as you dwarven kensai, does he by any chance dual wield crom and a good axe? or just crom and the thrower? One mean hombre

I have never liked the term sword saint anyway, and I agree with you about dwarves etc, they should have stated close quarter specialist since melee weapons and thrown weapons fall into that class.
I don't know whether allowing kensai's throwing weapons or not was intentional, it is certainly not obvious given class descriptions, but if we reclassify as close quarter and ranged for kensai and archer, and this seems to fit the implemented facts, maybe that was biowares intent. Who knows.

You have made some good points and my kensai will certainly investiagte throwing weapons when they finally get out of dungeon 1.

The thing I love about this game is the near infinite tactical possibilities, you have raised some more.

Does Kai work with the thrown weapon?

Cheers,

WittyNewt.

[Big B]

Note: You cannot dual wield the Dwarven Thrower becuase it is a thrown item. Same with Azuredge, Firetooth Dagger, etc.

Likewise I do not care that you want to roleplay a Dwarven Kensai with throwing hammers. Cheers to you. But I do care when you go dragging archers in the mud on message boards with a character who has to argue to prove his legitamacy in the first place.

[wittynewt]

Hi,

Yep I know about the dual wielding and throwing item, thats why I said he just has crom and the thrower (forgot to specify in his quick slots, single weapon style).

Anyway thanks for the correction .

Lighten up a little though Big B, Mirkwood was just putting forward his point of view, his delivery was a little rough and probably delibrately so to get a few feathers ruffled. Looks like you bit

Who says whats legit or not anyway? , the game as it currently stands allows it and Bioware have had several chances to "fix" the feature and have not.

I still like the close quarter and ranged classification for kensai versus archer, its fits the implemented facts well, rather than sticking to the "sword saint" and "bow classification. If Bioware had really meant that why do they allow kensai to take non sword weapons and archers to take non bows.

I still say that if Mirkwood was to rerun his analysis (properly ) with magical projectiles such as those Ragusa listed he would fall on his own hammer (is that possible? ) don't forget acid and fire arrows either.

I had so many magical arrows by chapter 6 that I was throwing them away.

Cheers,

WittyNewt

[This message has been edited by wittynewt (edited November 15, 2001).]

Who said anything about dual-weild? and you are the one who brought up the roleplaying crap, not me. The initial post was to prove a Kensai does more ranged damage than an archer, not to "drag the archer through the mud". Prove to me that the archer is more effective or shut up.

[That was directed at that ugly Otyugh above.. close your mouth! what are you doing, catching flies?!]


[This message has been edited by Mirkwood (edited November 15, 2001).]

[wittynewt]

Hi there,

Take it easy people, no need to fall out!

I do find it a little sad though that some of the people who post to this board and have a high "post count" feel the need to "lord" it over the rest.

Especially, when they seem to put their foot in their mouth when they do this.

Come on, lighten up and lets talk about how Minsc hid Boo from Irenicus Richard Gere anyone?

Cheers,

WittyNewt

[Big B]

Yes it's mouth is just big enough for a tasloi

Look I am not "Lording" here. I was offended by Mirkwood's choice of words to begin with. Calling his post just another "Why Archers Suck" post is shaky even if he backs it up with a little smiley face winking. Everyone is entitled to their opionion and if he sees it fit to come on the boards and display a comparison that is questionable (check above replies) in a brash manner, then he should be prepared for brash rebuttals. You dish it out, you take it back. I would still like to see a comparison but with the above factors taken in account and a bit more objective way of putting it.

Mirkwood, I do not dislike you. IIRC I have agreed with you many times over on the ToB boards. But this post did "ruffle" my feathers. I don't like to say that any one class or any one NPC "sucks". I think this is clear and consistent throughout my other posts.

Also, one thing I do is I am sure to read all posts in their entirity in a topic before I reply. If you read Wittynewt's post you can see quite clearly he mentioned dual wielding. I do this to avoid "sticking my foot in my mouth."

Also I have never told anyone on these boards to "shut-up", (not even the infamous Extremist ), and I would appreciate (as I am sure the rest of the board would too) that you don't go around telling people on the boards to shut-up. Thats what mods are for.

I apologize to anyone on these boards who feel like I have "lorded" over them.

*Shutting up now* Not for Mirkwood, but for the little Tal angel sitting on my shoulder. (PS. while ingoring the devil Extremist on the other )

Well ok, the post was a bit hostile in order to get a response. I like Archers, really, I played one through ToB and he had 30% of the kills and this was with Korgan and Sarevok in the team. I just think that when it comes to dealing out damage, whether it's melee or missile, the Kensai is best and I posted an example of why.

Sorry about the shut up comment, that was uncalled for. I love you too Big B

I think I shall shut up now.

I just read the topic. Archers not the best missilers? HERETIIIIIIIIIIIC! BLASPHEMY! Just the title of the class: Archer (double underlined, in ten foot high bright red letters!) Come ON!

[Ragusa]

I agree - archers are indeed the best missilers in BG-2, and if not in terms of THACO (though I do hardly believe this: Just take a dex-19 archer, give him the bracs of archery, a bow +4 and arrows of piercing = +3 +2 +4 +4 = +13 on THACO) then in terms of range - the range of a bow or crossbow will probably be larger that a throwing weapon's ... and there is stealth as well allowing sneak, snipe and fade tactics where the kensai has to use brute force and skill in an attempt to crush his enemies before they can slice him up.

Anyway, I apologize for rashly declaring the absence of racial weapon boni in BG-1 (I never saw them noted somewhere), some corrections here (and above):
http://www.sorcerers.net/ubb/Forum2/HTML/004196.html

[This message has been edited by Ragusa (edited November 15, 2001).]

[Headbanger]

I miss the factor Thaco in your count. That also does count. And I know that a throwing axe on melee has not 3,5 attacks per round but I can remember from BG that throwing axes is much slower for the axe needs time to fly and to return. I think I got some time tonight, then I will create both characters and compare them some more careful.

[wittynewt]

Hi,

Ok, I am glad we are all still friends (never doubted it for a moment )

Big B and others who quoted my "lording over" and other bits.

Thanks for the quotes, , I do love being quoted
It is certainly not my place to slap any wrists here, Tal and the other moderators are here for that.

Good replies anyway, I love this banter, as you might of noticed, I don't understand the word brevity .

I still contend that if Mirkwood can be bothered to do his analysis properly that the archer will still win out: the two key points for me are range and additional damage from magical arrows. Not forgeting using a tuigan bow, if Mirkwood can pick his wpn my archer will pick theirs.

Finally, I think I am going to create that halfing slinger I mentioned. I'll play around and work out how I can do it using SK. Maybe human archer and change race to halfing would work. Give him/her sling of seeking and a strength gridle and stand back!

I really must play SOA/TOB tonight rather than checking out stats and so I hope headbanger can give us his verdict.

Cheers,

WittyNewt.

[Ragusa]

I wanted to find out two things:

(a) who is better in ranged-weapon combat – the archer or the pure missile weapon fighter ?
and:
(b) do halflings get bonusses for using shortswords and slings ? (in reference to another, related topic)

I created 3 sample chars, a human archer, a human pure fighter and a halfling pure fighter (all with identical stats and equipment (as far as possible)). The human fighter should work as the benchmark to compare the archer and halfling with – therefore the pumped-up weapon proficiencies.

Standard stats: 18/00; 18; 18; 10; 18; 8 (halfling: 17; 18; 18; 10; 17; 8 - for melee comparison I gave him the gauntlets of ogre power). I did the comparison in the ToB multiplayer so the chars had all 2.500.000 XP. I decided for a highlevel comparison for a simple reason: At that point the classes developed their skills to a point allowing to point out differences.

The sample char's weapon proficiencies:
-Archer, lvl-16: ***** w. longbows & crossbows; * longswords
-Human Fighter, lvl-18r: ***** w. longbows, crossbows, slings, short- and longswords
[Note: I compared the two chars at different levels – yet at the same XP, the fighter is 2 levels higher so he gets a general +2 on his THACO ! This has to be considered when comparing THACO in melee and archery]
-Halfling Fighter, lvl-18: ***** w. slings, short- and longswords


(a) I compared the archer to the fighter in melee and ranged weapon combat:

(aa) Archers and melee: When comparing the archer to the pure fighter (both had a longsword +1) I was surprised:
-archer: * in L'swords – base THACO 4, actual THACO 0, 2 attacks
-fighter: ***** in l'swords – base THACO 2; actual THACO –4; 5/2 attacks = 2 ½ attacks – just half an attack better !

(bb) Archers and ranged weapon combat:
(both chars had the same equipment, bows and ammo: Manabow +4, dex-18, bracers of archery, arrows of piercing – resulting in an equipment THACO bonus of: 4 + 2 + 2 + 4 = +12).

-archer: ***** in longbows – base THACO 4; actual THACO –15: ; 5/2 attacks.
-fighter: ***** in longbows – base THACO (note: he's 2 levels higher) 2, actual THACO –12, 5/2 attacks

Comments:
I felt that, especially later in the game, when your party usually encounters stronger, heavily armored opponents, the archer kit's extra damage brings him in a clear advantage when compared to a fighter; so imo the archer is clearly better in ranged combat than a fighter.
As for melee: With just half an attack behind and the little disadvantage in melee-THACO the archer is surprisingly powerful in melee, despite his * weapon proficiency. Considering his AC it has to be noted that he is not even made for that kind of stuff .... . When teaming with a high AC melee char, binding enemies in close combat (and keeping them away from the archer) an archer is an extremely powerful and very effective char.

(b) Halflings do not receive any boni with shortswords. But they do receive +1 on THACO when using slings – since they can have dex-19 this results in a total +2 THACO advantage for slingfighting.

[Note: heavy crossbows and slings have the same amount of attacks – they are just like melee attacks – 5/2 max; they do more damage-per-hit than a bow though]

***************************************

(c) Average damages (a brief sketch from the fight of the three vs. Illasera & friends, nothing calculated though):

-archer: 13 to 15 damage each hit
-fighter: 6 to 10 damage each hit
-slingfighter: 18 to 20 each hit (blunt damage)

That much about theoretical damage counting – the real game looks different: armored enemies with resistances, different damage types (different elemental, slashing/ piercing/ crushing) and, yes, shields and last but not least – the dice ...

That much for archers ans pure fighters - I'm curious about the comparisn between the throwing hammer-kensai and an archer by marnix.

[StressedE]

Hmm.. This is exactly why I installed the "crack" that sets weapon proficiencies to AD&D rules. No archer can keep up with my fighters (Talking about melee I mean, I am a huge fan of archers myself, but they shouldnt be able to keep up frontline) . Which is good from roleplaying perspective, also from powergaming perspective, take your pick

[wittynewt]

Hi,

Good work Ragusa.

I am not surprised by the archer vs fighter melee difference, one star gives you the right to use the weapon, five stars give you +2 THACO and +4 damage plus a little extra speed and extra half attack. As you point out, at higher levels it makes only a small difference since THACO is good anyway. In BG1 five stars gave you +3 and +5 plus speed plus extra full attack.

Not sure about your attacks per round though for fighter and archer. Archer looks right at 2 per round. I thought fighter should be 3 per round though. Same for ranged attack as well.
My mistake Ragusa, I have checked and you are correct about those attacks per round.

I don't know what the possible bottom limit for an archers AC might be, but when I thought about it for my female elven archer I reckon I could acheive -8 by chapter 3 end. Thats not bad!

As far as THACO is concerned. I wnet through the monster manual checked some things in infinity explorer and I think the lowest AC you face is demogorgon at AC -12. Hence, when you have reached a THACO of -12 nothing better matters and you will only miss on a roll of 1 (that always misses).

The other nice thing about the archer is that he gets the two free points on dual wield from being a ranger. Hence, you can always use him as a dual wielder if you run out of arrows or you need to take out a missile immune beast. Give him Kundane in his offhand and away he goes.

I am just waiting for you to create that halfing slinger I mentioned. I felt sure he was just right as a companion for you evil halfing kensai .

Cheers,

WittyNewt.



[This message has been edited by wittynewt (edited November 15, 2001).]

[Ragusa]

the halfling slingfighter *you* suggested ??! HAH ! No way, you're too late http://www.sorcerers.net/ubb/Forum12/HTML/000045.html
and http://www.sorcerers.net/ubb/Forum2/HTML/001974.html


(the wonderful thing about having 1600+ posts is that you have plenty of opportunities to quote yourself )

[wittynewt]

Hi,

Those are some nice threads and some great discussions, why wasn't I on this board 6 months ago

I would prefer the sling of seeking and a gridle of strength myself, and just equip that +5 sling when I needed to. Add in bracers of archery and then gaxx and the bracers of lightning strike and he/she is all set. You are right about the other weapon choices though.

However, did you ever create him? That super duper slinger from halfing hell?

I think he will be my first halfing character in SOA, I'll let you know how I get on.

Cheers,

WittyNewt.