Best race for a sorcerer?

[Sir Rechet]

Originally Posted by JT

But most of the time, your "rest of the party" will just be at the level they should be -- no advantage. The rest of the time (I'd guess about 20-30%) they will be +1 level over the vanilla party.

The more I think about it, the less I agree with you.

Consider a lvl 10 non-ECL party, each character having 45,000 exp points when they reach lvl 10.

To reach that same experience award plateau, that ECL+1 party would have to be level 11 while the ECL character is level 10. Thus the party would still count as being lvl 10 for purposes of calculating exp. Thus each one of them must have at least 55,000 exp. Which, by incident, is just about 20% more than the 45k that the non-ECL party had.

Edit: Forgot the actual point. The Non-ECL party will count as level 2 party upon their first level-up, while the ECL+1 party still counts as level 1 even if it now has 5 level 2 characters. Meaning the ECL+1 party WILL gain more experience until it reaches the non-ECL party's average level. But in order for this to happen, the five non-ECL characters in that party will have to be one level higher than the ones in the non-ECL party. QED.

[coineineagh]

An ECL is always a disadvantage to your party's level.
The dynamic XP system will partially mitigate the ECL penalty by giving a proportionally higher XP bonus.
BUT, ECL will always stay a penalty, because you need to be lower level to get higher XP gains. At best, you can get your non-ECL party members up a level or two at most, but otherwise the increased XP is just to lessen the level disadvantage.
If you mean that you can get 5 party members up to a higher level momentarily, then don't forget that you'll pay for it by getting less XP sooner.
The dynamic XP system isn't fluid, it's incremental, and this makes it harder to determine whether you'll even get this advantage.

[JT]

I'm pretty sure you're both wrong. But I have two tests and two quizzes tomorrow so I don't have time to calculate it. Perhaps on the weekend I will resume playing this party: http://www.sorcerers.net/forums/showthread.php?t=27072

[Sir Rechet]

Originally Posted by coineineagh

BUT, ECL will always stay a penalty, because you need to be lower level to get higher XP gains. At best, you can get your non-ECL party members up a level or two at most, but otherwise the increased XP is just to lessen the level disadvantage.

But that's the whole point of it. You'll end up with one character that has the same level as you'd have if you didn't take any ECL races with you, plus five others that have UP TO one more. That's certainly not weaker, on the contrary - rather distinct advantage in my book.

Just to clarify, a level 10 drow is counted as level 10 character for purposes of exp awards, not 10 + 2 = 12 as you seem to assume. Yes, in that case you'd be two levels behind with that character with "nothing" to show for it. But that's not how it works in IWD2.

[Scythesong Immortal]

Let's not go into the Drow Sorcerer vs Human Sorcerer 1 on 1 discussion please. As a veteran of similar discussions let me be the first to say they usually don't end well.

I did this, and I found that my bard never engages in combat. Combat takes many rounds, and unless you like stopping every two rounds to activate the Lingering Song, the bard will be missing out on singing and casting if it engages in combat. The best use of a bard involves singing, casting, and *maybe* some ranged attacks when mopping up at the end. Casting a spell is no problem with Lingering Song feat active, when "autopause:spell cast" kicks in, you can just resume singing again. Not at all like awkward micromanagement during melee. The bard is even less useful in combat than my sorcerer and wizard, so I recently adjusted the bard to accomodate this; reducing strength and increasing intelligence, for skills and dialogue options.

-Ahh yes, the price of power is indeed steep. Personally I actually bring two Bards instead of one to maximize the effect. Double Tymora's melody to a party with only two full time casters and taking the summon route? Yes please.
-As for the melee issue the best axes in the game are actually the ranged ones so no biggie.

-Personally I don't see the sense in bringing a whole ECL-race party unless one cares to appreciate the first few hours of toil. The Drow SR is meant to protect him from potential harm. I don't see the sense in abusing that by repeatedly dropping fireballs in front of one's party.

Against powerful (high level) enemies, high saves are better than SR, because SR must defend against caster level.

-Actually, the best defense against a high level spell is another high level spell. I really don't think anyone should have their Sorcerers make critical saves if it can be avoided.

Now as for the will saving throw of a human sorc, a pal1/monk1/sorc16 gets a +11 save bonus naked, which can be easily enhanced to +17 with a few items and buff spells, nothing too elaborate. This means that the sorcerer can easily resist an attack roll of (10+17=)27 or lower.
Madae attacks with a 1d20 + 8 (WIS bonus) + 2 (spell level). This gives her only a 15% chance to make the human sorc fail a save.

I'm not sure how high a drow's will save is precisely, but I'm assuming it is minus the CHA-bonus to saves, because of not having a paladin level. So let's say the save bonus of a lvl16 drow sorc is about +10 with buffs and items. This would give the sorc a 50% save chance, enhanced by 35% from SR success, would make 62% percent chance of successfully saving or resisting the spell.

-I do not understand how "nothing too elaborate" buff spells and items can add a +17 bonus to a Human Sorc while only giving the Drow a +10.
-Don't underestimate the prowess of a Sorcerer in full buffs (and quite a few of those will not be his own)
-Consider that to get to this setup the human will have to already be on Isair/Madae's stronghold. On the other hand the Drow gets to keep his SR for the rest of the game (the other 95% of it).

There are some spells that actually bypass SR too.

-And there are some that don't give a save. Characters also automatically fail on a save of 1. (in d&d I think this is called "critical failure", iirc)

The powerful enemies are more important, but the average ones are much more numerous. I don't think it matters much that the human sorc might defend better against Madae, when the sorc defends better against 98% of enemy casters.

-Amen.

The most powerful enemies are the most important, because you need every advantage you've got to bring them down. Failing a save or two more when facing Isair and Madae, can mean swift defeat.

-True, except when "every advantage" comes into the equation the Clerics, Druids and other members in the party will also have their say.

A problem with your drow sorc here, is that it still has weak saving throws behind the high SR. It will still be affected by spells that bypass SR, like Tremor and Wail of the Banshee.

-A false assumption. Between Death Ward and a staggering amount of other buffs that Clerics and Druids have, both Sorcs should not have too much trouble getting high saves and no small amount of protections. That was the whole point of having a party.

Against I+M, you're going to be loaded down with save boosting spells anyway, probably to 95% saves even without a paladin mixin. It's silly to say that one build is better based on an advantage in the final battle of the game, ignoring the hundreds of earlier battles where the other build is better.

-I just realized I've rephrased everything JT said.

The drow's spells lag behind for most of the game

-True, but that is poor arguement against what makes a Drow Sorcerer less powerful. A Drow does not need to be 2 levels higher when he can do his job with only what he has, with a Human or other Wizard to compensate for the lost spell level. The presence of a primary caster (the Wizard) also relegates the Sorcerer to a purely "nuker" role. This fixes the lost spell levels perfectly because the Drow's disadvantage is all but minimized to the mere damage of his nukes. Why? Because unless someone comes up with a Sorcerer with four arms for simultaneous casting, the nuker will remain focused on damaging spells and while the primary caster will takes care of the more delicate, save-dependent spells.

and the SR is a necessary boost to its poor saving throws

-For 95% of the game, the Drow and Human will have similar saving throws and in the remaining 5% the sheer amount of buffs and protections a party can dish out can have an amazing effect on the lowly Drow's saves

but it doesn't even make the drow on par with a human in terms of defense Humans have way better life stats

-When the Sorc is caught vulnerable enough for one to pray that his HP advantage should matter, it probably won't

level faster, their spells do more damage (in hit die, not DC)

-Unfortunately, the game is not exactly ideal and monster HP won't exactly scale along with damage either, resulting in overkill in most cases.

and their mix-in options allow for boundless possibilities in the later game.

-Mix-ins should be a whole party concern, not a single character's. A Sorcerer should not be using Cera Sumat especially sincea fighter character can put it to much better use.

4) Saving throws NEVER lose importance.

-No they don't. But it is possible to go overboard with them, which would not be advisable except for "bait" characters.

For all that I don't feel like I made much headway and I'm as tired as ever.

The main difference between our opinions Coineineagh is that you think of the most powerful Sorcerer as a single powerhouse for the ideal situation, while my opinion is based more on synergy and the current situation. Given that we probably won't agree on what's best until Christmas.

[coineineagh]

Originally Posted by Scythesong Immortal

-True, but that is poor arguement against what makes a Drow Sorcerer less powerful. A Drow does not need to be 2 levels higher when he can do his job with only what he has, with a Human or other Wizard to compensate for the lost spell level. The presence of a primary caster (the Wizard) also relegates the Sorcerer to a purely "nuker" role. This fixes the lost spell levels perfectly because the Drow's disadvantage is all but minimized to the mere damage of his nukes. Why? Because unless someone comes up with a Sorcerer with four arms for simultaneous casting, the nuker will remain focused on damaging spells and while the primary caster will takes care of the more delicate, save-dependent spells.

You consider your sorcerer to be an arcane fire spellslinger, while your mage concentrates on advancing fast, to get important high-level spells. This doesn't go up for my mage, since my DG Illusionist already has 3ECL, and the mix-ins actually put her behind my sorcerer.
I try to see my illusionist as a rogue/mage, but with a strong emphasis on the spellcasting, so that she can't really be considered auxiliary.
I see my human sorc type as more of a warlock (accidental roleplaying, though she'd be a white witch due to her alignment), with plenty of fire and necromancy, but still room for taking up some transmutations and enchantments in Heart of Fury. I disagree about the importance of Cera Sumat in melee, but this is likely because I have access to numerous mod items, and mod-enhanced items. Mods aren't everyone's cup of tea, but you'll find the greater challenge rating of Tactics4IWD2 quite addictive if you try it.
Some items are much better in normal mode, and I value Cera Sumat mainly for its 16SR, though it remains a decent combat weapon too.

Originally Posted by Scythesong Immortal

The main difference between our opinions Coineineagh is that you think of the most powerful Sorcerer as a single powerhouse for the ideal situation, while my opinion is based more on synergy and the current situation. Given that we probably won't agree on what's best until Christmas.

Don't get me wrong; I value the discussion, and appreciate everyone's input. It's useful for (re)learning the game rules, and potentially devising even better characters. I had totally forgotten the +2 s.t. that drow get, until JT reminded me, for example.
I still believe that the human sorcerer is the most suitable member of my powergaming party, and I just updated my IWD2_4dummies guide where she remains almost unchanged (i now add a level rogue after sorc20 so she can wear Crow's Nest, that's all). My 4th version should be available on the boards soon.
I also didn't know that Jukka/Sir Rechet was still around, and I'm glad to hear he's renewed interest in his guide. The new insight into SR and Evasion in another thread looks very promising. Since I do 'versatile powergaming', I don't feel like I'm competing with 'Ultimate Powergaming Guides' like JUPP.

The versatility is where we differ here, Scythesong. I try to make my characters as versatile as possible, at a minimum of sacrifice. Ultimate charaters were developed for a singular purpose, and do excel at that, but they have more limitations and vulnerabilities.
With the example of spell protections, your drow starts with higher saves at level 1, and SR. It levels slowly, and aquires new spell levels later, but gets +1DC, which pays off when it has reached all levels. Its SR continues to progress at a steady pace, as do its saving throws. It's definitely a good character; one of the best, most 'ultimate' casters in fact.
My human on the other hand, doesn't start with the drow's +2 saves, or SR. But it levels faster early on, which is a distinct advantage in the difficult early game. A sorcerer should primarily cast spells, (spell) defense is of lower priority. Once it takes a level paladin (which I do at level 7), it gets a significant boost to saving throws, taking it significantly above the drow, and this will only improve double-speed, as it advances in levels and Charisma. Once 2 mix-ins are taken, it is at the level of its drow counterpart. When paladin and monk mix-ins are combined, it gets protection from sky-high saves and monk Evasion, that the drow can't achieve without penalties. As I mentioned earlier, the human can also acquire the maximum of 50SR with items and buffs.
The character I just described has the most layers of spell protection I can think of, and it is just one of its many versatile traits.

[Scythesong Immortal]

I'm not saying I'm mad or anything. I enjoy debates. I just don't think we can come to an agreement with this one.

I meant that you're building your Sorcerer so he is the best that a Sorcerer can be given IWD2 mechanics, spells and items. Versatility is a natural side effect. Your Sorc could probably solo the twins in HoF with few or no reloads and win.

I'm building my Sorcerer so he synergizes best with the rest of the party. Focus is preferred instead of versatility, since versatility is viewed in the scale of a party rather than individually. The Human bonuses are nice, but pales as a necessity. SR is preferred because magical harm (friendly or otherwise) is the one type of damage nigh-unavoidable by micromanagement and tactics. Drow higher Charisma makes DC's higher and grants an extra casting, along with mundane bonuses. Item distribution is seen in the eyes of a party rather than individually, so maximizing a single character is difficult and impractical. Drow stats (saving throws, HP, BAB) actually advances very similarly to a Human's until mid-high level, at which point powerful protection spells become available.
Holy Aura, in particular, has a less known side effect. It grants the party SR which stacks with the buff, allowing the Drow to nuke his own party at leisure. The -2 class levels help minimize friendly damage.

Yes my Drow Sorc is a spellflinger. The Wizard is never of an ECL race, so besides having the highest DC in the party he's reponsible for casting the save-or-bust spells and a few nukes/buffs/debuffs.

[KFX]

Originally Posted by Scythesong Immortal

Point is that the Drow will always have 2 more CHA and have SR while the human will always be able to cast spells 1 level higher than the Drow in the main campaign. Anything else is relative.

This isn't actually true. +2 ECL does not directly translate into "2 levels behind" because the game checks only character levels, not effective level when calculating how many XP you should get for combat. Any race with a +ECL will need more XP but also increase the amount of XP the party gains, negating the penalty somewhat.

Personally, I voted Human because 1) getting to minimize the INT is too much of a powergaming opportunity to ignore and 2) DAY BLINDNESS. Day Blindness gives a flat -1 to anything your Drow does when outdoors, taking away most of the benefits from the increased stats right there. The only thing left after that is the spell resistance, which is indeed very useful, but not enough to lose nine whole character points for IMO.

[JT]

KFX: You can minimize INT with a drow too. Spellcraft isn't mandatory.
Day blindness is annoying but *most* of the most important areas of the game are indoors or underground.

[KFX]

Originally Posted by JT

Spellcraft isn't mandatory.

Technically no, but the +20%-to-damage feats it enables are so much better than anything else on offer for spellcasters, featwise, that it might as well be. Not picking those feats is gimping your caster.

'Sides, a Drow doesn't get to reduce his INT all the way to 3... nor raise his CON all the way to 18.

[Sir Rechet]

Originally Posted by KFX

This isn't actually true. +2 ECL does not directly translate into "2 levels behind" because the game checks only character levels, not effective level when calculating how many XP you should get for combat. Any race with a +ECL will need more XP but also increase the amount of XP the party gains, negating the penalty somewhat.

That's true. ECL only matters relative to the rest of your party.

A drow in a party otherwise full of ECL zero characters - such as the Rogue(1)/Wizard(x) from the original UPP - is really going to be dragging behind in power.

A human in a party otherwise full of Drows and Deep Gnomes is going to end up a couple levels higher.

Therefore, the original poll is rather moot point, as long as the rest of the party isn't specified.

And yes, +20% bonus to elemental damage is HUGE. 15th level Sunfire suddenly becomes as effective as if cast by 18th level caster -- except that it's capped already at 15th level. Likewise, a 20th level Delayed Blast Fireball jumps from 20d6 to "24d6", i.e. as if cast by a 24th level caster. There's no way you can compensate for such losses elsewhere.

[T2Bruno]

If they cast haste a sorcerer can be competitive in any race....

[dmc]

You may need to be banned for that joke. . . .

[T2Bruno]

... ever since the threat started I've been resisting, but someone had to go and resurrect it. You know you've had the same thought -- be honest now.

[JT]

But Jukka, the elemental spells aren't the most powerful to begin with, especially in HOF (you mentioned a 20th level caster). Necromancy and enchantment spells are better.

More importantly, the powergaming advantage to minimizing INT with a sorc is most likely going to be more points in STR or WIS, which just don't matter.

Human sorc:
CHA 18 CON 18 DEX 18 INT 3
WIS 10 STR 9 or perhaps WIS 3 STR 16 and a throwing weapon, though I prefer a longbow with highly enchanted arrow for the improved range.

Drow sorc who goes for elemental feats:
CHA 20 (worth at least two feats over the human)
CON 16 (disadvantage)
DEX 20 (advanatage)
INT 12
WIS 3
STR 9

Second guy is better IMO

[Sir Rechet]

Quite frankly, Slings are better than bows any day of the week, twice on sunday, ASSUMING you have the STR for it. Bows no longer get automatic +1 attack per round as they did in 2e rules, and Rapid Shot works just as well with Slings.

[coineineagh]

Originally Posted by JT

But Jukka, the elemental spells aren't the most powerful to begin with, especially in HOF (you mentioned a 20th level caster). Necromancy and enchantment spells are better.

More importantly, the powergaming advantage to minimizing INT with a sorc is most likely going to be more points in STR or WIS, which just don't matter.

Whether STR on a sorcerer is irrelevant, depends on your play style. High STR sorcs, properly buffed, are good in melee. It just breaks the roleplaying spirit of the game.

As for enchantment and necromancy being better than evocation: not really. In HoF, enemies are so often resistant or immune to those effects, that they also become poor. Buffs are the ultimate spells in this game; there's no need to overcome enemy immunity, resistance, or saving throws. That's also why melee should not be dismissed, not even for your sorcerer!

[Scythesong Immortal]

At least T2Bruno's joke made sense.

[Mordokai]

...no it didn't...

Would somebody be kind enough to explain it to half drunk idiot?

[dmc]

Casting haste means you seriously speed up -- race (not elf/dwarf/human, but 100 meter sprint) . . .

Pretty self explanatory (note the name of the thread . . .)

[Mordokai]

Yeah, I feel stupid now.

Thanks for explaing it.

[dmc]

No worries, sometimes the obvious isn't.

[spmdw45]

Originally Posted by countduckula

Perhaps a way to help settle which build is better is to have them duel. Although such duels would be grossly biased in favour of the Drow because of their magic resistance. Hmmm.

Not as much as you'd think. According to JUPP's testing, many of the spells they'd love to cast on each other aren't affected by SR anyway, e.g. Wail of the Banshee, Finger of Death, Disintegrate, Feeblemind, (Abi-Dalzim's) Horrid Wilting, and Meteor Swarm. Great Shout is NOT one of these, so I guess that means the Drow wins automatically... if the duel takes place at a range less than 30 feet, and there was no time to prep beforehand (e.g. by casting Seven Eyes).

(And by "automatically" I suppose I mean "the human is forced to cast Great Shout too, and the Drow is unaffected 40% of the time" since he's two levels lower. Discounting the dynamic levelling effects for the sake of the "duel.")

-Max

[lendial]

I am a little confused about dynamic exp distribution.
It sounds like a party of 6 ECL will be roughly the same level as a party of 6 non ECL in the long run?

as for the topic: i would say drow is the stronger race pick in the long run. Once you get to HoF, WotB is really the only thing that can effectively kill huge mobs of monsters at a reasonable pace and having +1 dc means a lot on a 20 monster mob. Mass dominate is the other big hitter and also relies on high DC. Symbol of hopeless from a 40 int bane cleric is fun too but youll still have to follow up with AoE.
Strong spells like horrid wilting and DFB will start to wane in power because even a lowly orc will have 300 hp and theres always an issue of riendly fire(which sr will help immensely).

Early on, human is obviously stronger due to the level advantage(unless you're squatting like a mofo). The extra feat at level one is rather negligible but gaining extra stats from a tanked int score opens up a lot possibilities.

Courtesy of JUPP: Humans can also take 1 level of paladin for massive save bonus and martial weapon proficiency, another level grants them immunity to fear, though it seems you will still be affected if you roll a 1. You can also take a level of monk to gain evasion-- essentially granting you immunity to "dodge-able" spells if your reflex save is high and allowing you to use special monk only gauntlet which increase attacks per round and opens up very interesting melee options. A previous also suggested taking a single level of ranger for dual wielding but this is not terribly viable in HoF unless you designate this sorc as your primary melee berserker as well.

If we only care about end-game which is essentially HoF mode:
drow: SR , 2 char , no mix in meaning ~9 less saves, no evasion possiblity
aasimir: NO sr, 2 char , paladin mix in but no evasion possibility
human: NO sr, extra ability scores/skill points, paladin and monk mix in

sorcs gain almost no additional spells/day after level 20 so the only worth is increasing the damage of uncapped spells like DFB, skulltrap, and durational spells like mass dominate. Even then, its still worthwhile to take 1 if not 2 or 3 class mix ins for added protection and versatility.

with that in mind, i still go with JUPP's human sorc+ mix in path . regardless of which of the 3 races you choose , i believe sorcerer is the strongest single class in iwd2 and if i had to play through the game with just 1 character from 1 class i would choose sorc.

also, where can i find detailed enemy information like madae's class(Which is aparently level 20 cleric) and also stuff like AC/resistances/saves/attack roll BAB?

[coineineagh]

Originally Posted by lendial

I am a little confused about dynamic exp distribution.
It sounds like a party of 6 ECL will be roughly the same level as a party of 6 non ECL in the long run?

No, but an all-drow party will eventually only be behind 1 level, instead of the 2ECL penalty, due to increased XP gains. They'll never catch up to a non-ECL party though.

Originally Posted by lendial

as for the topic: i would say drow is the stronger race pick in the long run. Once you get to HoF, WotB is really the only thing that can effectively kill huge mobs of monsters at a reasonable pace and having +1 dc means a lot on a 20 monster mob. Mass dominate is the other big hitter and also relies on high DC. Symbol of hopeless from a 40 int bane cleric is fun too but youll still have to follow up with AoE.
Strong spells like horrid wilting and DFB will start to wane in power because even a lowly orc will have 300 hp and theres always an issue of riendly fire(which sr will help immensely).

In fact, offensive spellcasting in general suffers, making buffing the best course of action. JUPP also mentions that high DC doesn't solve everything: Spell Resistance is overcome by caster level, not DC (but if you mix in paladin with aasimar, and also monk with human, then you're on the same level as a drow again). Immunities are also very annoying and hard to keep track of: high level Slayer Knights are immune to many enchantments that affect low level versions.

Early on, human is obviously stronger due to the level advantage(unless you're squatting like a mofo). The extra feat at level one is rather negligible but gaining extra stats from a tanked int score opens up a lot possibilities.

What's a 'tanked INT score'? Do you mean having hight INT for extra skillpoints? Sorcerers only need concentration and spellcraft, so more than 2skills/level only opens up multitasking possibilities.

You can also take a level of monk to gain evasion-- essentially granting you immunity to "dodge-able" spells if your reflex save is high and allowing you to use special monk only gauntlet which increase attacks per round and opens up very interesting melee options. A previous also suggested taking a single level of ranger for dual wielding but this is not terribly viable in HoF unless you designate this sorc as your primary melee berserker as well.

Here on the Boards AFAIK, the guy who first suggested mixing in monk with a pal1/sorcX (CHA-enhanced reflexes + Evasion, yay), is the same guy who thinks there's merit to mixing in a ranger level. The ranger is timed appropriately, but its benefits are also improved by a mod, Light of Selune (needed to purchase a ranger-only bow with 1.5x STR bonus to dmg).

Originally Posted by lendial

also, where can i find detailed enemy information like madae's class(Which is aparently level 20 cleric) and also stuff like AC/resistances/saves/attack roll BAB?

http://www.sorcerers.net/forums/show...6&postcount=13