Ultima 7

[ion]

The other thread in this forum about the greatest CRPGs of all time made me realize that there is quite a hole in my gaming resume. I somehow missed the ultima series until 9, which as everyone knows was a disaster. I want to remedy this. What are the best ultimas and how can I still play them. Would ultma 7 be a good place to start. I think you can emulate it and the graphics seem good enough to enjoy (never been a huge graphics person, as I play all of spiderweb games for instance). Anyone have any recommendations or experience playing older ultimas on newer machines?

[Jack Funk]

Ultima 7 (and it's excellent sequel, Serpent Isle) were the start of the third trilogy. You would have no trouble starting there.
Ultimas 4-6 are great as well. The graphics are seriously out dated at this point. That said, they are fun. I played Ultima 6 over and over.

[Ziad]

The series really starts with Ultima 4. You would have no problem starting with 4 but playing them in order does make a lot of sense. The first trilogy are a pain - they show their age, and not just in graphics. U4 has a graphics and sound upgrade that makes it quite playable, especially since you mentioned not putting huge importance on graphics. U5 is hard, but IMO it's also very much worth it. U6 is the one that completely changed the series in terms of graphics and gameplay and is still very playable, although you will need to take manual notes to keep track of things.

All of the old Ultimas are playable through DosBox. U2 through U5 have upgrade patches. U4's upgrades graphics to 256 colour VGA and adds music. U5's adds only the music, so that one's graphics may be the hardest to get into. If they bother you that much you can always buy the Lazarus Runtime Environment (or Dungeon Siege as a few people insist on calling it) and download the remake, Ultima 5: Lazarus, which is just amazing. Ultima 6 is already VGA and also plays flawlessly through DosBox. U7 you can either play normally with DosBox or using Exult, the emulator that's now at a pretty advanced stage.

For the full experience, integrate the Worlds of Ultima and Ultima Underworld games in the right place. So playing order would be:
Ultima 4
Ultima 5
Ultima 6
WoU: Save Empire
WoU: Martians Dreams
Ultima Underworld
Ultima 7: Black Gate
Ultima Underworld II
Ultima 7 pt2: Serpent Isle

The Worlds of Ultima games use the U6 engine and provide "side" adventures, Savage Empire in a Jurassic Park-type environment (years before the movie was released!), Martian Dreams on Victorian Mars. Martians Dreams has a very good story too. The Ultima Underworlds are first-person single-player RPGs and very good ones. UW2's story bridges Black Gate and Serpent Isle very neatly and has some very nice plot connections to some of the other games.

If you really want to, you can try to play the first Ultima trilogy as well. The first one's not bad at all actually, if you play the remake (which is the only version that can be found nowadays anyway), and is very short. The second one is absolutely awful, the 3rd is frustrating but has some interesting ideas for such an old game. They're not really required for full enjoyment of the series, though having played them I can say they're not so bad as to be unplayable. Both U2 and U3 have combined graphics/gameplay patches that are almost required though, and U3's also adds music.

[Rawgrim]

I finished Ultima 7 in Exult, last year. Works like a charm in XP and Vista. Never got ultima underwolrd to work properly in dosbox though. It kind of "skipped" alot when playing. As for Ultima 5, I would recomend that you play the U5 Lazarus game, instead of the original one. Its basically the same game, only with real time combat, and 3d graphics. It has character portraits for every person you meet in the game as well. The whole package looks, and sounds great.

On a side note: How come there isn`t a page dedicated to the Ultima games on this forum? There are about 12 games, al in all, in this series. And the series itself kind of put crpgs on the map, back in the days. Most of the games are very similar to the BG games as well. That goes for the Might and Magic series too. I see alot of peope mentioning those games on the boards.

[Ziad]

Originally Posted by Rawgrim

Never got ultima underwolrd to work properly in dosbox though. It kind of "skipped" alot when playing.

That's odd, I never had this problem. The game ran very smoothly. Maybe some of your DosBox settings needed tweaking.

As for Ultima 5, I would recomend that you play the U5 Lazarus game, instead of the original one. Its basically the same game, only with real time combat, and 3d graphics.

While I agree that Lazarus is fantastic, I don't quite consider it the same game, due to several factors: the game world is different (location of things in relation to each other), the gameplay is very different (real time vs turn based, 3D vs top down view) and the dungeons are completely unrelated due to the previous point. In some places, especially in the dungeons, it's more a reimagining than a remake. Still very good though.

On a side note: How come there isn't a page dedicated to the Ultima games on this forum? That goes for the Might and Magic series too. I see alot of peope mentioning those games on the boards.

I think it's because, even though the 2 series get mentioned every one in a while, they don't get mentioned enough to warrant their own page. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see a Might and Magic page, but if it will have only one thread active every 3 months then there's not much point. Especially when you compare to how active the Fallout and Elder Scrolls pages are.

[T2Bruno]

I got started on Ultima III. Many of those old Ultima games are available as freeware, but be warned the graphics is like Space Invaders -- very substandard to today.

The plotline for Ultima IV was probably the best for any CRPG ... ever (if you like to play good) -- this game set the standard for role playing games that few games have ever matched. The graphic, unfortunately was not good by today's standards. Ultima V was a darker version of IV, not quite as compelling, but still very good with a slight upgrade to the graphics. I also found the plot for Ultima VI to be incredible with interesting plot twists -- it was with Ultima VI the graphics got a major upgrade. I think Ultima VI and beyond (including World of Ultima and Ultima Underworld) are probably the lowest graphics grade you may want.

The scope of Ultima VII, parts 1 and 2 was amazing -- these were true epic CRPG's at the same time the gold box sets for AD&D were out (simply no comparison in quality). Part 2 had a plot twist which far surpassed the betrayal by Yoshimo -- it upset many fans of the game (I thought the plot element was perfectly executed). Both part 1 and part 2 have add-ons that should be played as well.

Both Ultima VIII and Ultima IX were a let down, but playable. Some of the twists in VIII were interesting, but not having Shamino, Iolo, or Dupre along was disappointing. This was the first Ultima where the Avatar was forced to go alone (aside from Ultima Underworld which are basically plot driven FPS games).

I think the Worlds of Ultima games were the most fun of any game I played until Planescape: Torment. Savage Empire was good, but Martian Dreams was amazing.

As Ziad said, manual notes are almost required for all Ultima games. You need passwords, chants, ingredients, etc. available to use at a moments notice.

A quick search on the web will get you instructions for playing these older games on newer systems -- Exult is an excellent method to play Ultima VII. You can play all the Ultima's in DOSBox. The programs were clocked on processor speed so you may need something like Mo'Slo if you are playing in a dos window.

There are also projects to put Ultima games on newer game engines -- many of these are listed on the Ultima: The Reconstruction fan website. You can play Ultima using NWN and Dungeon Siege (for example).

[Rawgrim]

I think all of the Ultima games are available for download (legally), now. Can find them at Abandonia.com. That site usually only keeps games there that are legal to download.

[Ziad]

Originally Posted by T2Bruno

The scope of Ultima VII, parts 1 and 2 was amazing -- these were true epic CRPG's at the same time the gold box sets for AD&D were out (simply no comparison in quality).

I don't think that's a very fair comparison. Pool of Radiance came out in 1988, Ultima VII: The Black Gate in 1992. Even nowadays 4 years is a lot in computer years, but at the time it was a huge time.

Ultima Underworld which are basically plot driven FPS games.

I've never agreed with the definition of of the Underworld games as FPS. They're 1st person and they're in real time - the comparison stops here. They're not just plot driven, they also have a lot of interaction with NPCs, skills and stats are as important if not more than the player's reflexes, and although combat is in real-time it's much too slow-paced for an FPS. Combat is also not the main focus of the games and much of it can be easily avoided (there are very few fights in either game that are absolutely required to win).

I think the Worlds of Ultima games were the most fun of any game I played until Planescape: Torment. Savage Empire was good, but Martian Dreams was amazing.

Agreed, especially with respect to Martian Dreams. The setting was very interesting and the story was just great. I think this is also the first Ultima where I had real trouble keeping track of my notes - there was huge number of keywords you could use in conversation, much more so than any of the previous games.

The programs were clocked on processor speed so you may need something like Mo'Slo if you are playing in a dos window.

The upgrades patches for U2 through U4 have built-in frame limiters that will make the games run at a specific speed regardless of CPU. Priceless for getting both a smooth game and one that doesn't run insanely fast, and almost required for U2 (landing the shuttle in that one is a nightmare without the patch).

There are also projects to put Ultima games on newer game engines -- many of these are listed on the Ultima: The Reconstruction fan website. You can play Ultima using NWN and Dungeon Siege (for example).

For now Ultima V is the only one that's been remade with Dungeon Siege's engine. An Ultima VI remake is in the making with the same engine. There are 2 Ultima IV remakes with the NWN engine but frankly neither of them is on the same level as the U5 remake.

Originally Posted by Rawgrim

I think all of the Ultima games are available for download (legally), now. Can find them at Abandonia.com. That site usually only keeps games there that are legal to download.

I think there's a difference between "legally abandonware" and "no one's asked us to remove them yet". Ultima IV is the only one that's been released officially as freeware, but EA hasn't bothered about enforcing their copyright over any of the old games (and why would they?), probably turning a blind eye to them being distributed as long as they have nothing to lose. Should they suddenly decide to release another Ultima Collection type compilation (very, very unlikely) then they'll start sending letters around.

[T2Bruno]

Dragonlance Series was 1990-1992 and a Gold Box (as was Savage Frontiers and Buck Rogers). Don't get me wrong -- I enjoyed all the Gold Box games as well, they just were not on par even with Ultima VI, let alone VII.

Dark Sun, even with its buggy game engine, was a significant upgrade. As were the Ravenloft games.

[ion]

Thanks for all the imput!

Definitely going to play some Ultima. Haven't decided if I will start with 4 on dosbox or 7 on exult. Probably search for some screenies to see what graphics I can tolerate.

[Ziad]

Originally Posted by T2Bruno

Don't get me wrong -- I enjoyed all the Gold Box games as well, they just were not on par even with Ultima VI, let alone VII.

I agree, and it's true the Gold Box engine was used for far too long (especially by the Savage Frontier games). Compared to how the Ultima games kept rewriting their engines as well as the entire RPG genre with every entry between 3 and 7 inclusive, the Gold Box games are nowhere as complex or deep, as they really were fancy hack and slash adventures and not much more.

Dark Sun, even with its buggy game engine, was a significant upgrade. As were the Ravenloft games.

I love Dark Sun and always thought it was a very underrated game. It's a shame both games were so buggy and that no more were produced. Ravenloft was a very nice setting, I've only played the first one but it was a nice change from the more tame Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance.

Originally Posted by ion

Definitely going to play some Ultima. Haven't decided if I will start with 4 on dosbox or 7 on exult. Probably search for some screenies to see what graphics I can tolerate.

Check the screenshots of the VGA Ultima 4 here compared to the original. There's also a comparison of the various scalers used by xu4. Speaking of which xu4 is probably the best way to play the game, as it will also upgrade the 3D dungeon graphics (which the normal VGA patch doesn't, IIRC). I definitely recommend starting the series with 4 if you can stomach the graphics - aside from 4,5 and 6 being excellent games, 7 will also feel much richer if you already know the history of the world and the personal stories of the characters.

[Rawgrim]

Damn. Got the Ultima kicks myself too, now. I realized I have only finished Ultima 7, wich is a shame. I think I will start with 4, and then do Ultima 5 Lazarus, 6, 7 part 1, ultima underworld 2, ultima 7 part 2, and then ultima 8. I think thats the proper chronoligocal order to do them.

Anyone gotten ultima 4, 6 and 8 to work particullary well?

[Ziad]

I've not played U8 since it came out 15 years ago, but U4 and U6 work fine on modern systems in DosBox. In fact it's essential you use DosBox for U6, as the game has no frame limiter and is annoying unless you find the right number of cycles to use where things are fast enough but not too fast.

For U4 there's many ways to play. You can play the original as is in DosBox, but you'll be missing out on the music. There's a graphics + music patch on the internet that includes a frame limiter as a bonus, and with this the game runs fine in XP without DosBox. However I think the best way to play the game now is using xu4, a pretty nifty multi-OS port. xu4 allows you to use the graphic upgrade as well, but I'm not sure if you need to download it separately now or if it's been integrated into the engine proper.

If you want to play the first Ultima Underworld, you can sneak it between 6 and 7. It has no relevance to the overarching plot but is a very good game nevertheless.

[Rawgrim]

I fired up Ultima VI today. Downloaded it from Abandonia.com. So I get the character creation over with, and then I get a message saying that there is allready a game in progress. I assume that there is some saved game allready in the copy. I tried deleting all of the contents in the savegame directory, but when I start tha game again, it crashes. Any suggestions?

[Ziad]

IIRC in order to delete and old game and create a new one, you need to go into the install program and do that from there. I don't remember exactly what the options were but there should be one for starting a new character by deleting your previous one, along with his/her save game.

Oh yeah, one word for warning: the game has only one save game position. Be sure to backup often (on a modern system I'd just back up the entire directory)

Did you change your mind about playing 4 and 5?

[Rawgrim]

I didn`t change my mind, no. I`m just making sure that all of them work, before I begin playing through the entire series. Found all of the manuals online as well, scanned. Replacementdocs.com, I belive the site was called. I remember reading somewhere that there is a "new" version of ultima 4 somewhere. Same graphics, but with new sound. Know anmything about that?

[foody]

Are there ever plan on making an Ultima 7 Construction Set (Exult does not count)?

[Blades of Vanatar]

I recently purchased the "Ultima Collection", games 1 thru 7, right here at Sorcerers Shop! I have loaded all of the games on an older PC of mine, 466 MHZ Pentium, and they are running fine. I recommend playing thru from the beginning, if you can stomach the older graphics, as i started my gaming way back when with Ultima I and still enjoy the throw back games immensely!

[foody]

Originally Posted by Blades of Vanatar

I recently purchased the "Ultima Collection", games 1 thru 7, right here at Sorcerers Shop! I have loaded all of the games on an older PC of mine, 466 MHZ Pentium, and they are running fine. I recommend playing thru from the beginning, if you can stomach the older graphics, as i started my gaming way back when with Ultima I and still enjoy the throw back games immensely!

Are there plan on making an Ultima 7 Construction set?

[Ziad]

Exult itself is not a construction set, but one of its derivatives, Exult Studio, is being built to be just that. According to its documention, "The main purpose of Exult Studio is the ability to create an entirely original game world without using the original Ultima 7 data files." From what I can tell they're still not there, but work is being put into it. Check out Exult's page and have a look at the Studio documention for more information.

[foody]

Originally Posted by Ziad

Exult itself is not a construction set, but one of its derivatives, Exult Studio, is being built to be just that. According to its documention, "The main purpose of Exult Studio is the ability to create an entirely original game world without using the original Ultima 7 data files." From what I can tell they're still not there, but work is being put into it. Check out Exult's page and have a look at the Studio documention for more information.

In that case I will found that project.