F/T or F/M/T?

Mongerman · Sun, 26th Apr '09, 11:43am

Well, in my SCSII game, I decided there was no space in my powergaming party for a thief, so I installed no locks and traps. Now, several hours into the game, I realised I really missed having a thief around. Guess its restart time.

Question, since there is no need for thief skills to go above 100, should I dilute my thief and fighter skills to become a f/m/t for some added flexibility and tanking power?

TIA

kmonster · Sun, 26th Apr '09, 12:51pm

F/M/T is definitely more powerful than F/T.

NOG (No Other Gods) · Sun, 26th Apr '09, 1:43pm

A lot of people see the thief as just anti-lock and anti-trap protection, but in BGII the thief is SOO much more, especially with ToB. Additionally, I think it may be a bug in the system, but multiclass characters seem to get their first HLA at the first lvl they reach AFTER the SoA xp cap (8M or something, I think, maybe). This means that your individual levels don't have to be nearly high enough for, say, 9th level spells (and they won't be for a F/M/T), but you also get about 3X the number of total HLAs, because each class is leveling up. Your HLA chart will be crouded, and I'm not sure how that will come out (may not be able to select some of skills), but be prepared for dozens of HLA skills available to a F/M/T.

Yes, a F/T benefits from this as well, but not as much.

As to the overall comparison between the two, both are purely awesome builds. Both are ridiculously powerful. The F/M/T is the better of the two. I don't think your base attack will be as high (due to lost lvls in fighter), but you'll have more HP (due to more lvls total) and access to spells and scrolls (and the scrolls are the important bit). A tank with stoneskin, mirror image, and protection from magical weapons is almost invulnerable.

T2Bruno · Sun, 26th Apr '09, 1:58pm

For a solo I'd say yes, but for a party no. With UAI you can use wands and read scrolls. You don't need the mage portion. The mage HLA's for a F/M/T are pretty lame.

Fly2tHeSkY · Sun, 26th Apr '09, 3:16pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by T2Bruno

The mage HLA's for a F/M/T are pretty lame.

Why? After you've used assassination and whirlwind the mage spells can be pretty fun to throw around.

Mongerman · Sun, 26th Apr '09, 3:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by T2Bruno

For a solo I'd say yes, but for a party no. With UAI you can use wands and read scrolls. You don't need the mage portion. The mage HLA's for a F/M/T are pretty lame.

Think I could get away with it in a 4 men party?

I'm trying out a party with classes I have never used before.

1. barbarian (let's see if 80% dmg reduction is as good as it looks...)
2. wild mage (never tried wild surges before as well)
3. ranger/cleric (will I have enough healing as a multi r/c?)
4. f/m/t or f/t

T2Bruno · Sun, 26th Apr '09, 4:51pm

You don't get the good mage HLA's -- only extra spells.

pplr · Mon, 27th Apr '09, 12:55am

Actually I came to like the summon planar HLA mages have. Some people use them just for fighting but they have some decent spells. I think they can cast earthquake for offense and they can raise dead up to 3 members of your party mid-battle (they have 3 heal spells to get them back to full health to boot).

So in one of my ToB runs I actually found that having my mage around was more important than my cleric in battles where I figured my party would take a good amount of damage or a few deaths.

Fly2tHeSkY · Mon, 27th Apr '09, 8:51am

I always thought you got ALL of the mage HLAs if you multicasted

Mongerman · Mon, 27th Apr '09, 9:49am

You do, except that you'll probably never be high level enough to cast them.

Thanks for all the feedback guys. I finally decided to go with a plain ole multi f/m and delegate the thieving duties to a swashie10/mage. Assassination and UAI just can't compete with earlier and more high level spells

Paulin · Mon, 27th Apr '09, 9:50am

Yes, but a F/M/T does not reach spell lvl 9, so you can't use the spell HLAs.

Also, a F/T will actually get MORE (23) HLAs than a F/M/T (20).

pplr · Mon, 27th Apr '09, 11:26am

I had Nalia and due to her Int I don't think she was supposed to be able to cast 9th level spells but she was able to just fine. I was even able to use 9th level spells with her after getting the HLA. Maybe I'm misunderstanding how the system works but aren't only mages with Int 18 able to do 9th level spells?

Granted you can boost her Int by a point in the Tower, but I think was using HLAs with her before then.

Proteus_za · Mon, 27th Apr '09, 12:22pm

Characters with less than 18 INT can cast level 9 spells as long as they already know them. So, if you take a potion to boost intelligence, you can then copy the spell into your spellbook and memorize it. When the potion wears off, you cant learn any more level 9 spells, but you can memorize those you already know. I think lower INT also impacts how many spells you can know at any given level. Also, BG2 Tweaks includes a tweak to remove this, so a character with 3 INT could learn every single level 9 spell.

I think FMTs are only useful in parties with 3 or less characters. Any more, and they get starved for experience. Their spell and THAC0 progression suffers as a result.

They can be devastatingly effective if used right, but are slow to level.

NOG (No Other Gods) · Mon, 27th Apr '09, 3:39pm

Personally, I think the real gold in the Thief HLAs are the traps, especially TimeStop. Since your HLAs for any lvl up will be taken from the total pool, you could have a ton of TimeStop traps with a character that has high accuracy and can backstab! It's a good point that this doesn't use any of the mage HLAs and the scrolls and wands can be used with Use Any Item, though. Still, that means waiting for your first HLA to use Stoneskin and Mirror Image (not to mention hoarding scrolls for them) if you want to tank.

kmonster · Mon, 27th Apr '09, 3:49pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mongerman

I finally decided to go with a plain ole multi f/m and delegate the thieving duties to a swashie10/mage. Assassination and UAI just can't compete with earlier and more high level spells

It's not very important if your backup mage gets spells half as fast as your primary mage or a little more slowly. The extra options a multiclass thief has to offer (not only HLAs) are more valuable.

Proteus_za · Mon, 27th Apr '09, 3:59pm

@NOG

Yes, Time Traps are indeed awesome. With Fighter/Thiefs, you can use them with assassination for near insta kills, or with a thief/mage, you can use them to start casting your own timestop without any possible interruptions.

Mongerman · Mon, 27th Apr '09, 4:13pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by kmonster

It's not very important if your backup mage gets spells half as fast as your primary mage or a little more slowly. The extra options a multiclass thief has to offer (not only HLAs) are more valuable.

For example?

A f/m/t gets

1. traps
2. free means of dispelling illusion
3. better off hand weapon (scarlet ninja to)
4. really good weapon if using RR (short sword of backstabbing +5)
5. backstabs

at the cost of being roughly 2 levels behind a f/m and 1 less spell per level against a F/I. Might not seem like a big deal, but we're talking about getting high level spells like PFMW and contingencies here, as well as higher spell levels for stoneskin, mirror image etc

saros · Mon, 27th Apr '09, 8:09pm

With xp cap:

Party of 3 or more - F/T, Solo or 2-person party - F/M/T

XP cap removed:

F/M/T

If you play a difficulty increasing mod, then by all means choose F/M/T except if you play Improved Anvil with a full party, in which case you should stick to F/T

Edit: a F/I is much more powerful than both classes throughout the game, with the exception of xp cap removed, in which case a F/M/T is more powerful, but extremely late in the game (after wizard level 30).

NOG (No Other Gods) · Wed, 29th Apr '09, 4:49am

Alternatively, I've found the F/M/C to also be a killer combo, especially at higher levels. Who doesn't like Greater Contingency (or whatever it was called): Low Health: Stoneskin, Blade Barrier, Heal. Add in the armors that allow casting, dual wielding Crom Fayr and your personal favorite hammer/mace/etc. AND castings like Improved Alacrity, Timestop, whatever cleric spell you like, and you have one POWERFUL caster. My run with this soloed the entire final battle (don't remember what mods I had, but some difficulty increasing mods).

martaug · Wed, 29th Apr '09, 7:59am

What mod did you have to allow F/M/C ?
AFAIR, that isn't one of the allowed multi's in BG2.

Montresor · Wed, 29th Apr '09, 8:07am

Just checked, a Half-Elf can play F/M/T or F/M/C.

Mongerman · Wed, 29th Apr '09, 8:21am

To be honest, if you're going to use un-nerfed tables, then a blade would probably own both a f/m and f/m/t

Caradhras · Wed, 29th Apr '09, 11:01am

If you don't mind a bit of SKing you could go for a Wild Mage Multiclass. That being said I wouldn't go for three classes as it won't be that effective unless you're soloing the game.

Quote:

1. barbarian (let's see if 80% dmg reduction is as good as it looks...)
2. wild mage (never tried wild surges before as well)
3. ranger/cleric (will I have enough healing as a multi r/c?)
4. f/m/t or f/t

Regarding that party I'd say some extra arcane power may comes in handy (although the Wild Mage will make the other spellcaster look rather limited when he will turn all the level one spells into much more potent spells) I'm not sure this character will really keep up with the rest (he/she will be able to do everything but won't be as good as the others especially when spellcasting is concerned).

Proteus_za · Wed, 29th Apr '09, 11:46am

Also, regarding Ranger/Clerics, I prefer to dual a ranger to a cleric. The reason is that you advance as a cleric as if you were a single class, but get most of the benefits from being a ranger. Dual at level 9 or so.

When you regain your Ranger class abilities, you spell selection will change from that of a pure cleric to that of a ranger/cleric (including the nice druid spells such as summon insects and call lightning).

Fly2tHeSkY · Wed, 29th Apr '09, 12:05pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mongerman

To be honest, if you're going to use un-nerfed tables, then a blade would probably own both a f/m and f/m/t

BARDS can't backstab. Also AFAIK, bards get WW and GWW in their HLA pool instead of assassination right? F/M/Ts will get both

Edit - I meant bards can't backstab lol

Sun, 26th Apr '09, 11:43am	#1
Mongerman Gems: 8/31 Latest gem: Skydrop Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Sunny island set in the sea Posts: 270 Like: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts vBActivity - Stats XP: 1,066 Level: 11 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 25.32% Daily Activity 2.55% Weekly Activity 0.73% Monthly Activity 1.73% Achievements	F/T or F/M/T? Well, in my SCSII game, I decided there was no space in my powergaming party for a thief, so I installed no locks and traps. Now, several hours into the game, I realised I really missed having a thief around. Guess its restart time. Question, since there is no need for thief skills to go above 100, should I dilute my thief and fighter skills to become a f/m/t for some added flexibility and tanking power? TIA

Sun, 26th Apr '09, 1:43pm	#3
NOG (No Other Gods) Going to church doesn't make you a Christian Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Virginia Beach Posts: 4,883 Like: 0 Liked 1 Time in 1 Post vBActivity - Stats XP: 11,729 Level: 31 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 90.26% Daily Activity 2.55% Weekly Activity 0.73% Monthly Activity 1.73% Achievements	A lot of people see the thief as just anti-lock and anti-trap protection, but in BGII the thief is SOO much more, especially with ToB. Additionally, I think it may be a bug in the system, but multiclass characters seem to get their first HLA at the first lvl they reach AFTER the SoA xp cap (8M or something, I think, maybe). This means that your individual levels don't have to be nearly high enough for, say, 9th level spells (and they won't be for a F/M/T), but you also get about 3X the number of total HLAs, because each class is leveling up. Your HLA chart will be crouded, and I'm not sure how that will come out (may not be able to select some of skills), but be prepared for dozens of HLA skills available to a F/M/T. Yes, a F/T benefits from this as well, but not as much. As to the overall comparison between the two, both are purely awesome builds. Both are ridiculously powerful. The F/M/T is the better of the two. I don't think your base attack will be as high (due to lost lvls in fighter), but you'll have more HP (due to more lvls total) and access to spells and scrolls (and the scrolls are the important bit). A tank with stoneskin, mirror image, and protection from magical weapons is almost invulnerable.
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Sun, 26th Apr '09, 1:58pm	#4
T2Bruno SPS Account Holder The only source of knowledge is experience Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Chicago -- far west suburbs. Posts: 9,314 Like: 19 Liked 77 Times in 59 Posts vBActivity - Stats XP: 22,263 Level: 41 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 57.72% Daily Activity 53.57% Weekly Activity 29.86% Monthly Activity 34% Achievements Awards	For a solo I'd say yes, but for a party no. With UAI you can use wands and read scrolls. You don't need the mage portion. The mage HLA's for a F/M/T are pretty lame.
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Sun, 26th Apr '09, 4:51pm	#7
T2Bruno SPS Account Holder The only source of knowledge is experience Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Chicago -- far west suburbs. Posts: 9,314 Like: 19 Liked 77 Times in 59 Posts vBActivity - Stats XP: 22,263 Level: 41 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 57.72% Daily Activity 53.57% Weekly Activity 29.86% Monthly Activity 34% Achievements Awards	You don't get the good mage HLA's -- only extra spells.
	__________________ “I have little patience with scientists who take a board of wood, look for its thinnest part, and drill a great number of holes where drilling is easy.”

Mon, 27th Apr '09, 3:39pm	#14
NOG (No Other Gods) Going to church doesn't make you a Christian Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Virginia Beach Posts: 4,883 Like: 0 Liked 1 Time in 1 Post vBActivity - Stats XP: 11,729 Level: 31 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 90.26% Daily Activity 2.55% Weekly Activity 0.73% Monthly Activity 1.73% Achievements	Personally, I think the real gold in the Thief HLAs are the traps, especially TimeStop. Since your HLAs for any lvl up will be taken from the total pool, you could have a ton of TimeStop traps with a character that has high accuracy and can backstab! It's a good point that this doesn't use any of the mage HLAs and the scrolls and wands can be used with Use Any Item, though. Still, that means waiting for your first HLA to use Stoneskin and Mirror Image (not to mention hoarding scrolls for them) if you want to tank.
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Sun, 26th Apr '09, 12:51pm	#2
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Mon, 27th Apr '09, 12:55am	#8
pplr Gems: 16/31 Latest gem: Shandon Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 866 Like: 3 Liked 1 Time in 1 Post vBActivity - Stats XP: 2,451 Level: 16 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 23.93% Daily Activity 2.55% Weekly Activity 0.73% Monthly Activity 1.73% Achievements	Actually I came to like the summon planar HLA mages have. Some people use them just for fighting but they have some decent spells. I think they can cast earthquake for offense and they can raise dead up to 3 members of your party mid-battle (they have 3 heal spells to get them back to full health to boot). So in one of my ToB runs I actually found that having my mage around was more important than my cleric in battles where I figured my party would take a good amount of damage or a few deaths.

Mon, 27th Apr '09, 8:51am	#9
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Mon, 27th Apr '09, 9:49am	#10
Mongerman Gems: 8/31 Latest gem: Skydrop Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Sunny island set in the sea Posts: 270 Like: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts vBActivity - Stats XP: 1,066 Level: 11 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 25.32% Daily Activity 2.55% Weekly Activity 0.73% Monthly Activity 1.73% Achievements	You do, except that you'll probably never be high level enough to cast them. Thanks for all the feedback guys. I finally decided to go with a plain ole multi f/m and delegate the thieving duties to a swashie10/mage. Assassination and UAI just can't compete with earlier and more high level spells

Mon, 27th Apr '09, 9:50am	#11
Paulin Gems: 1/31 Latest gem: Turquoise Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Germany Posts: 1 Like: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts vBActivity - Stats XP: 151 Level: 4 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 50.16% Daily Activity 2.55% Weekly Activity 0.73% Monthly Activity 1.73% Achievements	Yes, but a F/M/T does not reach spell lvl 9, so you can't use the spell HLAs. Also, a F/T will actually get MORE (23) HLAs than a F/M/T (20).

Mon, 27th Apr '09, 11:26am	#12
pplr Gems: 16/31 Latest gem: Shandon Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 866 Like: 3 Liked 1 Time in 1 Post vBActivity - Stats XP: 2,451 Level: 16 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 23.93% Daily Activity 2.55% Weekly Activity 0.73% Monthly Activity 1.73% Achievements	I had Nalia and due to her Int I don't think she was supposed to be able to cast 9th level spells but she was able to just fine. I was even able to use 9th level spells with her after getting the HLA. Maybe I'm misunderstanding how the system works but aren't only mages with Int 18 able to do 9th level spells? Granted you can boost her Int by a point in the Tower, but I think was using HLAs with her before then.

Mon, 27th Apr '09, 12:22pm	#13
Proteus_za Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: South Africa Posts: 929 Like: 0 Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts vBActivity - Stats XP: 2,280 Level: 15 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 73.15% Daily Activity 2.55% Weekly Activity 0.73% Monthly Activity 1.73% Achievements	Characters with less than 18 INT can cast level 9 spells as long as they already know them. So, if you take a potion to boost intelligence, you can then copy the spell into your spellbook and memorize it. When the potion wears off, you cant learn any more level 9 spells, but you can memorize those you already know. I think lower INT also impacts how many spells you can know at any given level. Also, BG2 Tweaks includes a tweak to remove this, so a character with 3 INT could learn every single level 9 spell. I think FMTs are only useful in parties with 3 or less characters. Any more, and they get starved for experience. Their spell and THAC0 progression suffers as a result. They can be devastatingly effective if used right, but are slow to level.

Mon, 27th Apr '09, 3:59pm	#16
Proteus_za Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: South Africa Posts: 929 Like: 0 Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts vBActivity - Stats XP: 2,280 Level: 15 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 73.15% Daily Activity 2.55% Weekly Activity 0.73% Monthly Activity 1.73% Achievements	@NOG Yes, Time Traps are indeed awesome. With Fighter/Thiefs, you can use them with assassination for near insta kills, or with a thief/mage, you can use them to start casting your own timestop without any possible interruptions.

Mon, 27th Apr '09, 8:09pm	#18
saros Gems: 5/31 Latest gem: Andar Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 107 Like: 0 Liked 5 Times in 5 Posts vBActivity - Stats XP: 441 Level: 7 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 59.01% Daily Activity 2.55% Weekly Activity 0.73% Monthly Activity 1.73% Achievements	With xp cap: Party of 3 or more - F/T, Solo or 2-person party - F/M/T XP cap removed: F/M/T If you play a difficulty increasing mod, then by all means choose F/M/T except if you play Improved Anvil with a full party, in which case you should stick to F/T Edit: a F/I is much more powerful than both classes throughout the game, with the exception of xp cap removed, in which case a F/M/T is more powerful, but extremely late in the game (after wizard level 30).

Wed, 29th Apr '09, 4:49am	#19
NOG (No Other Gods) Going to church doesn't make you a Christian Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Virginia Beach Posts: 4,883 Like: 0 Liked 1 Time in 1 Post vBActivity - Stats XP: 11,729 Level: 31 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 90.26% Daily Activity 2.55% Weekly Activity 0.73% Monthly Activity 1.73% Achievements	Alternatively, I've found the F/M/C to also be a killer combo, especially at higher levels. Who doesn't like Greater Contingency (or whatever it was called): Low Health: Stoneskin, Blade Barrier, Heal. Add in the armors that allow casting, dual wielding Crom Fayr and your personal favorite hammer/mace/etc. AND castings like Improved Alacrity, Timestop, whatever cleric spell you like, and you have one POWERFUL caster. My run with this soloed the entire final battle (don't remember what mods I had, but some difficulty increasing mods).
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Wed, 29th Apr '09, 7:59am	#20
martaug Gems: 23/31 Latest gem: Black Opal Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: somewhere in the wastelands of america Posts: 1,714 Like: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts vBActivity - Stats XP: 4,790 Level: 21 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 74.7% Daily Activity 2.55% Weekly Activity 0.73% Monthly Activity 1.73% Achievements	What mod did you have to allow F/M/C ? AFAIR, that isn't one of the allowed multi's in BG2.
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Wed, 29th Apr '09, 8:07am	#21
Montresor SPS Account Holder Distinguished Member Online Walkthrough Writer Mostly Harmless 30k Starfighter Champion! Bomb Bandits Champion! Breakout Champion! Cutie Quake Champion! Driller Champion! Hexxagon Champion! Michu Champion! Treasure Hunt Champion! Driving Mad Champion! Moebius Syndrome Champion! Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Denmark Posts: 2,979 Blog Entries: 2 Like: 43 Liked 34 Times in 26 Posts vBActivity - Stats XP: 7,848 Level: 26 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 90.34% Daily Activity 53.57% Weekly Activity 15.29% Monthly Activity 28.04% Achievements Awards	Just checked, a Half-Elf can play F/M/T or F/M/C.
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Wed, 29th Apr '09, 8:21am	#22
Mongerman Gems: 8/31 Latest gem: Skydrop Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Sunny island set in the sea Posts: 270 Like: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts vBActivity - Stats XP: 1,066 Level: 11 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 25.32% Daily Activity 2.55% Weekly Activity 0.73% Monthly Activity 1.73% Achievements	To be honest, if you're going to use un-nerfed tables, then a blade would probably own both a f/m and f/m/t

Wed, 29th Apr '09, 11:46am	#24
Proteus_za Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: South Africa Posts: 929 Like: 0 Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts vBActivity - Stats XP: 2,280 Level: 15 vBActivity - Bars Level Completion: 73.15% Daily Activity 2.55% Weekly Activity 0.73% Monthly Activity 1.73% Achievements	Also, regarding Ranger/Clerics, I prefer to dual a ranger to a cleric. The reason is that you advance as a cleric as if you were a single class, but get most of the benefits from being a ranger. Dual at level 9 or so. When you regain your Ranger class abilities, you spell selection will change from that of a pure cleric to that of a ranger/cleric (including the nice druid spells such as summon insects and call lightning).