The best bow revisited

[Bsisi]

I made a comparison of the best bows by calculating their expected damage.
I assumed elven archer with 19 dexterity and varied character level, equipment and monster AC to get expected damage per round.
There are 2 effects that I assumed, but didn't verify:
-bracers of extraordinary specialisation give +2 DMG like advertised.
-elves get boost only to Trak0, not damage
Also, I was not sure about Tuigan Bow damage. The description says it's +1, but +1 bows normally don't get anything...to be safe, I calculated 2 versions; Tuigan Bow is like in desctription, Tuigan- is weakened.
Also, I didn't take into account amount of damage wasted on the last arrow; when enemy has 1 HP and you do 10 damage, 9 is wasted. On average each bow wastes a little less than 1/2 arrow damage per kill, so stronger bows look a bit better than they would in game. I didn't try to estimate whether it's a big effect, in hard fights (=enemies are tough), it should be small.

Comparison 1, lvl 7, Helm of Balduran, Tuigan bow with arrows +1 vs. Tansheron's vs. Strong Arm with arrows +1.
Tuigan- is stronger than Tansheron when enemy AC > -7 or < -19. Enemies with AC so low are rare this early, so Tuigan- wins.
Tuigan is stronger than Tansheron when enemy AC > -12 or < -18. Even greater win.
Strong Arm always wins against Tuigan-
Strong Arm wins against Tuigan when enemy AC < 2. Basically when a roll of 2 is insufficient for Tuigan to win, Strong Arm gets an edge by being more accurate.

Comparison 2, lvl 12, Helm of Balduran, Tuigan bow with arrows +1 vs. Tansheron's bow vs. Strong Arm with arrows +1.
Tansheron wins against Tuigan- when enemy AC < -14
Tansheron wins against Tuigan when enemy AC < -17
Clearly, Tansheron is not competitive.
Strong Arm always wins against Tuigan-
Strong Arm wins against Tuigan when enemy AC < -14

Comparison 3, lvl 18, Helm of Balduran, bracers of archery; Tuigan vs. Gesen vs. Strong Arm; Arrows+1 again.
At this level almost all arrows hit even the enemies with the highest AC. The speed of Tuigan Bow (even Tuigan-) pwns them both, even on enemies with the lowest AC slightly higher chance to hit doesn't compensate for the speed. Also, because archer gets a nice +6 dmg from being an archer, the +3 to damage from Strong Arm matters less then number of arrows piercing an enemy per second.

When levels go up, nothing changes. The sheer speed of Tuigan means more than higher damage of other bows. I was very disappointed with Taralash +5. It gets pwned by Strong Arm.
At the end of the game the average damage output per round (no matter what AC) is:

Tuigan Bow, Arrow +1           70,875
Tuigan Bow, Arrow +2           70,875
Tuigan Bow, Arrow +3           70,875
Tuigan Bow, Arrow of piercing  70,875
Tuigan Bow, Acid Arrow         79,425
Tuigan Bow-, Arrow +1          66,375
Tuigan Bow-, Arrow +2          66,375
Tuigan Bow-, Arrow +3          66,375
Tuigan Bow-, Arrow of piercing 66,375
Tuigan Bow-, Acid Arrow        74,925
Tansheron's Bow                51,625
Taralash +5, Arrow +1          51,625
Taralash +5, Arrow +2          51,625
Taralash +5, Arrow +3          51,625
Taralash +5, Arrow of piercing 51,625
Taralash +5, Acid Arrow        58,275
Gesen                          62,125
Strong Arm, Arrow +1           62,125
Strong Arm, Arrow +2           62,125
Strong Arm, Arrow +3           62,125
Strong Arm, Arrow of piercing  62,125
Strong Arm, Acid Arrow         68,775

This assumes using Helm of Balduran and bracers of extraordinary specialisation.

The raw spreadsheet that I used for calculations:
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=QFZ2PRLQ

Obviously, strength is not the only desired property, but clearly the primary one. And here Tuigan has a big advantage. Did I say that I'm disappointed with the results? It sucks that you can get the best bow so early and for almost entire game you know there will be no upgrade.

[Bsisi]

In the original spreadsheet I didn't take into account several effects, so overall damage should be higher...
Also, I included other weapons and cheesy usage of bullets in weapons that have their own. I was surprised how well does Sling of Seeking look here.

 92,5   Tuigan Bow, Arrow +1
 92,5   Tuigan Bow, Arrow +2
 92,5   Tuigan Bow, Arrow +3
 98,2   Tuigan Bow, Arrow of piercing
102     Tuigan Bow, Acid Arrow
 87,5   Tuigan Bow-, Arrow +1
 87,5   Tuigan Bow-, Arrow +2
 87,5   Tuigan Bow-, Arrow +3
 93,2   Tuigan Bow-, Arrow of piercing
 97     Tuigan Bow-, Acid Arrow
 70     Tansheron's Bow
 70     Taralash +5, Arrow +1
 70     Taralash +5, Arrow +2
 70     Taralash +5, Arrow +3
 74,56  Taralash +5, Arrow of piercing
 77,6   Taralash +5, Acid Arrow
 81,6   Gesen
 95,6   Gesen, Arrow +1
 95,6   Gesen, Arrow +2
 95,6   Gesen, Arrow +3
100,16  Gesen, Arrow of piercing
103,2   Gesen, Acid Arrow
 82     Strong Arm, Arrow +1
 82     Strong Arm, Arrow +2
 82     Strong Arm, Arrow +3
 86,56  Strong Arm, Arrow of piercing
 89,6   Strong Arm, Acid Arrow
 70,5   Giant Hair, bolt +1
 70,5   Giant Hair, bolt +2
 70,5   Giant Hair, bolt +3
 87,6   Giant Hair, bolt of lightning
 76,2   Firetooth
 89,7   Firetooth, bolt +2
 89,7   Firetooth, bolt +3
 93,12  Firetooth, bolt of lightning
 73,5   Sling of Seeking, 19 STR, bullet +1
 76,5   Sling of Seeking, 19 STR, bullet +2
 85,5   Sling of Seeking, 19 STR, bullet +4
 82,5   Sling of Seeking, 22 STR, bullet +1
 85,5   Sling of Seeking, 22 STR, bullet +2
 94,5   Sling of Seeking, 22 STR, bullet +4
 88,5   Sling of Seeking, 23 STR, bullet +2
 97,5   Sling of Seeking, 23 STR, bullet +4
 91,5   Sling of Seeking, 24 STR, bullet +2
100,5   Sling of Seeking, 24 STR, bullet +4
 97,5   Sling of Seeking, 25 STR, bullet +2
106,5   Sling of Seeking, 25 STR, bullet +4
 70,5   Erinne, bullet +2
 79,5   Erinne, bullet +4

Lvl 18, bracers of archery, Helm of Balduran (or the other helm that gives +1 Trak0), by enemy AC (10...-19)

	                                AC10	AC9 	AC8 	AC7 	AC6 	AC5 	AC4 	AC3 	AC2 	AC1 	AC0 	AC-1	AC-2	AC-3	AC-4	AC-5	AC-6	AC-7	AC-8	AC-9	AC-10	AC-11	AC-12	AC-13	AC-14	AC-15	AC-16	AC-17	AC-18	AC-19
Tuigan Bow, Arrow +1                60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	57,7125	54,675	51,6375	48,6	45,5625	42,525
Tuigan Bow, Arrow +2                60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	57,7125	54,675	51,6375	48,6	45,5625
Tuigan Bow, Arrow +3                60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	60,75	57,7125	54,675	51,6375	48,6
Tuigan Bow, Arrow of piercing       65,88	65,88	65,88	65,88	65,88	65,88	65,88	65,88	65,88	65,88	65,88	65,88	65,88	65,88	65,88	65,88	65,88	65,88	65,88	65,88	65,88	65,88	65,88	65,88	65,88	65,88	65,88	62,5725	59,265	55,9575
Tuigan Bow, Acid Arrow              69,3	69,3	69,3	69,3	69,3	69,3	69,3	69,3	69,3	69,3	69,3	69,3	69,3	69,3	69,3	69,3	69,3	69,3	69,3	69,3	69,3	69,3	69,3	69,3	65,8125	62,325	58,8375	55,35	51,8625	48,375
Tuigan Bow-, Arrow +1               56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	53,4375	50,625	47,8125	45	42,1875	39,375
Tuigan Bow-, Arrow +2               56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	53,4375	50,625	47,8125	45	42,1875
Tuigan Bow-, Arrow +3               56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	53,4375	50,625	47,8125	45
Tuigan Bow-, Arrow of piercing      61,38	61,38	61,38	61,38	61,38	61,38	61,38	61,38	61,38	61,38	61,38	61,38	61,38	61,38	61,38	61,38	61,38	61,38	61,38	61,38	61,38	61,38	61,38	61,38	61,38	61,38	61,38	58,2975	55,215	52,1325
Tuigan Bow-, Acid Arrow             64,8	64,8	64,8	64,8	64,8	64,8	64,8	64,8	64,8	64,8	64,8	64,8	64,8	64,8	64,8	64,8	64,8	64,8	64,8	64,8	64,8	64,8	64,8	64,8	61,5375	58,275	55,0125	51,75	48,4875	45,225
Tansheron's Bow                     43,75	43,75	43,75	43,75	43,75	43,75	43,75	43,75	43,75	43,75	43,75	43,75	43,75	43,75	43,75	43,75	43,75	43,75	43,75	43,75	43,75	43,75	43,75	43,75	43,75	43,75	43,75	43,75	41,5625	39,375
Gesen                               53,9	53,9	53,9	53,9	53,9	53,9	53,9	53,9	53,9	53,9	53,9	53,9	53,9	53,9	53,9	53,9	53,9	53,9	53,9	53,9	53,9	53,9	53,9	53,9	51,1875	48,475	45,7625	43,05	40,3375	37,625
Gesen, Arrow +1                     66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	62,825	59,5	56,175	52,85	49,525
Gesen, Arrow +2                     66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	62,825	59,5	56,175	52,85
Gesen, Arrow +3                     66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	66,15	62,825	59,5	56,175
Gesen, Arrow of piercing            70,14	70,14	70,14	70,14	70,14	70,14	70,14	70,14	70,14	70,14	70,14	70,14	70,14	70,14	70,14	70,14	70,14	70,14	70,14	70,14	70,14	70,14	70,14	70,14	70,14	70,14	70,14	70,14	66,605	63,07
Gesen, Acid Arrow                   72,8	72,8	72,8	72,8	72,8	72,8	72,8	72,8	72,8	72,8	72,8	72,8	72,8	72,8	72,8	72,8	72,8	72,8	72,8	72,8	72,8	72,8	72,8	72,8	72,8	69,125	65,45	61,775	58,1	54,425
Strong Arm, Arrow +1                54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	51,5375	48,825	46,1125	43,4	40,6875
Strong Arm, Arrow +2                54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	51,5375	48,825	46,1125	43,4
Strong Arm, Arrow +3                54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	54,25	51,5375	48,825	46,1125
Strong Arm, Arrow of piercing       58,24	58,24	58,24	58,24	58,24	58,24	58,24	58,24	58,24	58,24	58,24	58,24	58,24	58,24	58,24	58,24	58,24	58,24	58,24	58,24	58,24	58,24	58,24	58,24	58,24	58,24	58,24	58,24	55,3175	52,395
Strong Arm, Acid Arrow              60,9	60,9	60,9	60,9	60,9	60,9	60,9	60,9	60,9	60,9	60,9	60,9	60,9	60,9	60,9	60,9	60,9	60,9	60,9	60,9	60,9	60,9	60,9	60,9	60,9	57,8375	54,775	51,7125	48,65	45,5875
Giant Hair, bolt +1                 46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	43,9375	41,625	39,3125	37	34,6875
Giant Hair, bolt +2                 46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	43,9375	41,625	39,3125	37
Giant Hair, bolt +3                 46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	46,25	43,9375	41,625	39,3125
Giant Hair, bolt of lightning       60,5	60,5	60,5	60,5	60,5	60,5	60,5	60,5	60,5	60,5	60,5	60,5	60,5	60,5	60,5	60,5	60,5	60,5	60,5	60,5	60,5	60,5	60,5	60,5	57,4375	54,375	51,3125	48,25	45,1875	42,125
Sling of Seeking, 19 STR, bullet +1 48,75	48,75	48,75	48,75	48,75	48,75	48,75	48,75	48,75	48,75	48,75	48,75	48,75	48,75	48,75	48,75	48,75	48,75	48,75	48,75	48,75	48,75	48,75	46,3125	43,875	41,4375	39	36,5625	34,125	31,6875
Sling of Seeking, 19 STR, bullet +2 51,25	51,25	51,25	51,25	51,25	51,25	51,25	51,25	51,25	51,25	51,25	51,25	51,25	51,25	51,25	51,25	51,25	51,25	51,25	51,25	51,25	51,25	51,25	51,25	48,6875	46,125	43,5625	41	38,4375	35,875
Sling of Seeking, 19 STR, bullet +4 58,75	58,75	58,75	58,75	58,75	58,75	58,75	58,75	58,75	58,75	58,75	58,75	58,75	58,75	58,75	58,75	58,75	58,75	58,75	58,75	58,75	58,75	58,75	58,75	58,75	58,75	55,8125	52,875	49,9375	47
Sling of Seeking, 22 STR, bullet +1 56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	56,25	53,4375	50,625	47,8125	45	42,1875	39,375	36,5625
Sling of Seeking, 22 STR, bullet +2 58,75	58,75	58,75	58,75	58,75	58,75	58,75	58,75	58,75	58,75	58,75	58,75	58,75	58,75	58,75	58,75	58,75	58,75	58,75	58,75	58,75	58,75	58,75	58,75	55,8125	52,875	49,9375	47	44,0625	41,125
Sling of Seeking, 22 STR, bullet +4 66,25	66,25	66,25	66,25	66,25	66,25	66,25	66,25	66,25	66,25	66,25	66,25	66,25	66,25	66,25	66,25	66,25	66,25	66,25	66,25	66,25	66,25	66,25	66,25	66,25	66,25	62,9375	59,625	56,3125	53
Sling of Seeking, 23 STR, bullet +2 61,25	61,25	61,25	61,25	61,25	61,25	61,25	61,25	61,25	61,25	61,25	61,25	61,25	61,25	61,25	61,25	61,25	61,25	61,25	61,25	61,25	61,25	61,25	61,25	58,1875	55,125	52,0625	49	45,9375	42,875
Sling of Seeking, 23 STR, bullet +4 68,75	68,75	68,75	68,75	68,75	68,75	68,75	68,75	68,75	68,75	68,75	68,75	68,75	68,75	68,75	68,75	68,75	68,75	68,75	68,75	68,75	68,75	68,75	68,75	68,75	68,75	65,3125	61,875	58,4375	55
Sling of Seeking, 24 STR, bullet +2 63,75	63,75	63,75	63,75	63,75	63,75	63,75	63,75	63,75	63,75	63,75	63,75	63,75	63,75	63,75	63,75	63,75	63,75	63,75	63,75	63,75	63,75	63,75	63,75	60,5625	57,375	54,1875	51	47,8125	44,625
Sling of Seeking, 24 STR, bullet +4 71,25	71,25	71,25	71,25	71,25	71,25	71,25	71,25	71,25	71,25	71,25	71,25	71,25	71,25	71,25	71,25	71,25	71,25	71,25	71,25	71,25	71,25	71,25	71,25	71,25	71,25	67,6875	64,125	60,5625	57
Sling of Seeking, 25 STR, bullet +2 68,75	68,75	68,75	68,75	68,75	68,75	68,75	68,75	68,75	68,75	68,75	68,75	68,75	68,75	68,75	68,75	68,75	68,75	68,75	68,75	68,75	68,75	68,75	68,75	65,3125	61,875	58,4375	55	51,5625	48,125
Sling of Seeking, 25 STR, bullet +4 76,25	76,25	76,25	76,25	76,25	76,25	76,25	76,25	76,25	76,25	76,25	76,25	76,25	76,25	76,25	76,25	76,25	76,25	76,25	76,25	76,25	76,25	76,25	76,25	76,25	76,25	72,4375	68,625	64,8125	61

---------- Added 0 hours, 0 minutes and 57 seconds later... ----------

Forgot to add it in the post and I don't see an edit button...
The revised spreadsheet:
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=7NXH45TC

[T2Bruno]

From an old post of mine (quoting an even older post...):

The Tuigan bow is THE weapon for Archers (and for that matter any warrior with ***** in short bows -- Mazzy, for example). In the hands of a short bow expert the Tuigan bow is one of the most potent weapons in the game. I think the Strong Arm is a close second (and my preferred weapon for an archer -- long bows just look cooler for a fighter).

Give the warrior types the Tuigan bow with it's low 'to hit' bonus and high rate of fire -- the thieves need the high pluses from the Gesen or Tansheron to hit effectively.

An old post of mine:

I'll assume 7th level archer with grand mastery (without mod, and I know GM can't be obtained at 7th), using the girdle of hill giant strength, non-magical missiles, and hitting every attack (quite a stretch for 7th level).

Best early in game:
Tuigan bow - 4 att/rnd, 1d6+6 damage - 38 avg per rnd (56.25)
Eagle Bow - 3 att/rnd, 1d6+6 damage - 28.5 avg per rnd (43.75)
Strong Arm - 3 att/rnd, 1d6+9 damage - 37.5 avg per rnd (54.25)
Heavy Crossbow+2 - 2 att/rnd, 1d8+10 damage - 29 avg per rnd (43.75)
Lt Xbow of Speed - 3 att/rnd, 1d8+7 damage - 34.5 avg per rnd (50.75)
Sling of Seeking - 2 att/rnd, 1d4+16 damage - 37 avg per rnd (52.25)

The archer will get more damage at 9th level (and every 3rd level after that) and an additional half attack at 13th level. The average damage per round for a 15th level archer is in parenthesis.

The Tuigan bow becomes great with any item giving improved haste. For a 21st level archer that comes to 9 attacks per round at 1d6+11 which gives an average of 130.5 damage (if all arrows hit -- which isn't very much of a stretch given a THAC0 of -13) with a 162 damage maximum, the damage goes up a lot with magic arrows (Arrows of Piercing are really fun). We haven't even looked at called shots. The Archer is going to have almost two rounds before most enemies can close to melee. Pincushion.

This uses up a lot of arrows -- QUICKLY. This is unfortunately not addressed adequately until ToB (although, if installed, you can get the appropriate items in SoA). So most will just shift to the Short Bow of Gesen with a 1d8+13 damage per attack with an average of 120.5 damage and 147 damage maximum (for that same 21st level Archer).

Download the grandmastery fix for even more damage, but beware ... the enemies also get the new grandmastery bonuses.

[Bsisi]

Added Light Crossbow of Speed to the mix. Not surprisingly, normally it's quite bad. Nevertheless at lower levels and with the bolts of lightning it deals more damage than anything else.
The numbers for level 18, compatible with the ones above (correct for Thac0 10...-11):

Light Crossbow of Speed, bolt +1           50,75
Light Crossbow of Speed, bolt +2           50,75
Light Crossbow of Speed, bolt +3           50,75
Light Crossbow of Speed, bolt of lightning 70,7

That's assuming that only 20% of enemies fail their saving throws, I guess that at low levels this number should be higher. With 50% the damage goes up to 75.7 and at the same time Tuigan with arrows of piercing improves to 73.6.

Spreadsheet:
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=4CA93GB1

[The Cow King]

Your calculations are way off. You're not taking into account the fact that gesen/firetooth can be used with ammunition for extra damage (scroll down to the very bottom).

Firetooth +5 with Bolts of Lightning

2d8+5+2 +4d4 electrical (save for half) +9 (archer bonus) +2 (gauntlets) +3 (grandmastery)

Combine that with Greater Whirlwind = 35 MINIMUM average dmg per shot x 10 = 350 dmg per round.

---

Tuigan with Acid Arrows + Improved haste + Critical Strike = 10 APR

1d6+1 +9 +2 +3 +2.5 acid (not multiplied by CS)

370 + 25 acid = 395 damage per round

However, this requires improved haste. Otherwise it falls way behind Firetooth. Firetooth can actually do more average damage than Tuigan + Acid Arrows + Improved Haste + Critical Strike, but this requires the opponent failing his saving throws vs the lightning bolt. There's also the fact Firetooth can penetrate protections/immunities way better than Tuigan when required, while also requiring less buffs, making it much more efficient at disrupting spellcasters.

Tuigan, however, requires improved haste to even compete with firetooth. Tuigan & Critical Strike and no Imp. Haste vs Firetooth & GW with normal bolts = firetooth wins, hands down. There's also the fact that in the time it takes to buff the Tuigan user with Imp. Haste, Firetooth and GW has already dished out 300 AVERAGE dmg with NORMAL bolts. That means 1-2 nasty beasties are already down by the time Tuigan actually gets going.

Crimson Dart +3 > Tuigan with/without improved haste/critical strike anyhow. It's inherent +3, higher average dmg, early access, and infinite ammo just makes it a clearly better choice.

[T2Bruno]

Tuigan with Critical Strike and no Imp. Haste vs Firetooth & GW with normal bolts = firetooth wins, hands down.

Kind of a lopsided comparison isn't it? That's like comparing Carsomyr with greater whirlwind versus Belm (without haste, imp. haste, WW or GWW). Carsomyr WINS!!! Well ... duh.

The ammo with "ammo-less" weapons is one of many bug exploits out there. By the way, grandmastery nets +4 damage (+5 if you use the GM fix which also give an extra half attack per round).

[The Cow King]

Originally Posted by T2Bruno

Kind of a lopsided comparison isn't it? That's like comparing Carsomyr with greater whirlwind versus Belm (without haste, imp. haste, WW or GWW). Carsomyr WINS!!! Well ... duh.

Umm... no it isn't. That's a hyperbolic example you made there.

Tuigan = HLA + Improved Haste
Firetooth = HLA

Removing the need for a buff that can only be casted by a mage, unless you want to spend an entire round (that's 300 dmg with firetooth + GW + normal bolts) casting it yourself from an item.

Solo = Firetooth wins due to rarity of Improved Haste (unless you want to go your inventory screen and play around with bag of holding every round, certainly not my cup of tea)
Party = Higher party dps if you cast Improved Haste on your dual-wielding tank instead

Firetooth simply isn't reliant on a spell one cannot cast natively, while also having much better anti-caster, initiative, and immunity piercing properties. There's also the matter of Bolts vs. Arrows, as arrows got nerfed bad after BG1, while bolts didn't.

GOING EVEN FURTHER - Vhailor's Helm is infinitely superior for the Firetooth archer, compared to a Tuigan Archer. I don't even need to spell this out, it's so obvious. Not to mention your Simulacra has infinite supply of Lightning/Paralyzing bolts, making Firetooth a simply obvious choice. There's nothing quite like doing 650-700 average damage on the second round (and every round thereafter) after entering combat UNBUFFED, WHILE being completely self-reliant. This is probably the highest single target DPS build in the game. Since your Simmy has xx amounts of GWW (due to your genious insight of going with GWW and Firetooth instead of CS and Tuigan), you can even use it as a front line tank (or to attack whatever beasties get close to you), and use Staff of the Ram, Ravager, etc... with it. Not that it matters, seeing everything on the screen just dies when you enter combat.

Oh... ONE MORE thing. Some enemies are immune to critical hits, which reduces the damage of Tuigan significantly (50% to be precise) on some encounters.

And like I said, Crimson Dart beats Tuigan anyway. So best picks for ranged weapons are either Crimson Dart or Firetooth. Preferably both (specializing in darts and using Crimson Dart until you get HLAs, then going grandmastery in xbows), skipping short/longbows all together. Rest of the proficiencies are best put to 2h weapons and 2h fighting.

Originally Posted by T2Bruno

By the way, grandmastery nets +4 damage

That's correct, I just actually tested it. The in game description is wrong (not surprising).

[Bsisi]

Your calculations are way off. You're not taking into account the fact that gesen/firetooth can be used with ammunition for extra damage (scroll down to the very bottom).

Initially I didn't know about this bug, but the second spreadsheet contains it already. Yes, if you play cheesy, Gesen does more damage. Firetooth doesn't.

Combine that with Greater Whirlwind

Wait...you can use GWW with shooting weapons?!! This destroys my planning for the entire game...And I advanced quite a bit in it already.

2d8+5+2 +4d4 electrical (save for half) +9 (archer bonus) +2 (gauntlets) +3 (grandmastery)

2+5+2+4+9+2+3=27, not 35.
Also, the final Archer bonus should be +12. I tested it and Thac0 bonus it this high, so dmg should be too.
From my calculations, Firetooth with +4 grandmastery deals 39.6 dmg/shot on average (taking into account critical hits and misses and assuming 20% enemies fail saving throws).
Sling of Seeking with Str 24 and bullets +4 does 36.5.

In this case, it seems that for the final power, unless you go cheesy, slings are the best...

By the way, grandmastery nets +4 damage

Hmm...good to know, thanks.

And like I said, Crimson Dart beats Tuigan anyway.

Uhm..why?

I updated the spreadsheet to reflect +4 Dmg from grandmastery and fixed a bug that I had with Firetooth and bolts of lightning:
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=3A9KD8ZS

[The Cow King]

Originally Posted by Bsisi

Yes, if you play cheesy, Gesen does more damage. Firetooth doesn't.

Wrong. It's a hardcoded bug that affects ALL ranged weapons that don't require ammunition. It's stated very explicitly in the G3 website.

If Firetooth doesn't do extra damage with ammo, how am I doing 32 physical damage +2 fire damage +lightning bolt elemental damage?

This screenshot is from a L34 archer with Firetooth +5, Lightning Bolts, grandmastery in xbows, no gauntlets, no called shot.



In the picture, the elemental damage from Firetooth and the Lightning Bolts didn't get applied, because the kobold died before they had a chance to get applied.

Even if Ranger bonus goes all the way up to +12...

32 damage -12 ranger bonus -5 from firetooth bonus (it's physical damage) -4 from grandmastery = 11 damage. Last I checked, Lightning Bolt doesn't do 11 physical damage.



^ that's one shot with the elemental damage applied. +2 fire damage from Firetooth's innate gets applied as well, and the lightning damage comes in two parts (if target saves, the other part doesn't apply, and there's the save vs. text instead of it).

ALL damage from firetooth (1d8 +5 +2 fire) gets applied to the ammo you're using.

Originally Posted by Bsisi

Wait...you can use GWW with shooting weapons?!!

Yes. Nowhere in the description does it state it only applies to melee attacks.

Originally Posted by Bsisi

2+5+2+4+9+2+3=27, not 35.

Let me break this down for you.

Firetooth does 1d8+5+2
Bolt of Lightning does 1d8 +4d4 (save for half)
Archer bonus +9
Gauntlets +2
Grandmastery +4 (+3 in my previous post)

This amounts to

2d8 (base die from both ammunition) +5 (firetooth's enchantment bonus, physical dmg) +2 (firetooth's fire damage) +4d4 (lightning bolt elemental damage) +9 (archer bonus) +2 (gauntlets) +4 (grandmastery)

2d8 = average dmg = 9
5 = 5
2 = 2
4d4 (I'm doing the same as in my previous example, assuming enemy saves all bolts) = 5
9 = 9
2 = 2
4 = 4

9+5+2+5+9+2+4 = 36 average damage (with grandmastery applied correctly this time)

36x10= 360 dmg per round on average, even if enemy saves vs. ALL 10x lightning bolts. Not counting in crits. Not requiring Improved Haste, absolutely batshit with Vhailor's Helm, plus all other assorted benefits that I've already listed previously.

Firetooth is simply the best archer weapon in the game (high dmg without Imp. Haste, high versatility), it's a no brainer.

Originally Posted by Bsisi

Uhm..why?

I've already explained it in my previous post.

[Bsisi]

Wrong. It's a hardcoded bug that affects ALL ranged weapons that don't require ammunition. It's stated very explicitly in the G3 website.

Yes, I know. And it's in the spreadsheet. But w/out GWW, the other weapons didn't beat Tuigan.

Let me break this down for you. (...) 360 dmg per round on average

Previously you said.

MINIMUM average dmg per shot x 10 = 350 dmg per round.

Well, I don't know what is "MINIMUM average" , but I admit that reading it before I didn't notice the 'average' and there was just minimum. I agree that Firetooth with lightning bolts has the highest damage per hit. Like I said, my calculation taking into account crits and saving throws yielded 39.6 dmg/shot, a little above the Sling of Seeking.
BTW is it possible to have STR of 25 with a single class archer? Sling of Seeking does 38.5 Dmg/hit in such case and that's w/out exploiting bugs - which I don't intend to do anyway.

I've already explained it in my previous post.

I'm sorry, I think I am tired, but I missed this part entirely and thought that you were referring to a post in some other thread.

Crimson Dart +3 > Tuigan with/without improved haste/critical strike anyhow. It's inherent +3, higher average dmg, early access, and infinite ammo just makes it a clearly better choice.

I guess that in your damage calculations you ignored the fact that archer can get only 2 proficiency points in darts, which means -2 Dmg per hit. And the smaller range matters. You can get Tuigan with infinite ammo at the same point in game as the Dart, so they are tied here. Being +3 is no doubt good, but IMO by far not enough to make it better.

Updated the spreadsheet to include the dart:
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=WQS63UNX

[Paracelsi]

Thats a lot of number crunching.

I thought the Sling of Seeking was the strongest ranged weapon HLA-wise?

[The Cow King]

Originally Posted by Bsisi

BTW is it possible to have STR of 25 with a single class archer?

I guess one could use Draw Upon Holy Might two times per day, but obviously you don't get to keep those.

Half-Orc Generic Archer could attain 24 STR by default, if played through BG1.

Originally Posted by Bsisi

I guess that in your damage calculations you ignored the fact that archer can get only 2 proficiency points in darts, which means -2 Dmg per hit.

That I did forget, the -2 dmg certainly matters. Generic Archer from Tactics can take grandmastery in darts, however.

If I made a Firetooth archer, I'd make it a Generic Archer anyway, I can't stand playing good aligned characters.

If one is playing vanilla BG2 without the G3 fixpack however, Crimson Dart beats ALL ranged weapons in the game damage wise, since STR dmg gets applied to darts.

Originally Posted by Paracelsi

I thought the Sling of Seeking was the strongest ranged weapon HLA-wise?

It certainly does comparable damage to Firetooth (more in some cases)...

BUT

It's... well, a sling. Firetooth also has the added bonus of being able to punch through ALL mage protections.

- Protection from Normal Weapons = case of plenty
- Protection from Magic Weapons = normal bolts
- Stoneskin = lightning bolts
- Mirror Image = for some reason, even when the bolt hit an image, I still did 2 fire damage from firetooth sometimes
- Mantle = default firetooth ammo (+3)
- Improved Mantle = default firetooth ammo
- Absolute Immunity = default firetooth ammo

No mage is safe against the firetooth. It's the absolute caster killer. If one is playing Generic Archer from Tactics, you can even get 100% magic res with a potion of magic resistance (50% by default).

That's 20 bolts per round with Vhailor pummeling against a single mage, while practically every arrow goes through, while being completely safe from fireshields. There's not even an invisibility that helps, since mislead can be killed in a heartbeat.

And if we're still even comparing Tuigan vs. Firetooth, Firetooth also beats Tuigan at L13 with normal bolts. That's not even accounting for the fact that you can use Vhailor by that time to clone yourself and shoot Lightning Bolts with your Simulacra. That's not even accounting for the massive thac0 boost and +4 enchantment that punches through almost anything in SoA.

Improved Haste will also get attempted dispel in almost every mage encounter in the game when using Tuigan.

[Bsisi]

Half-Orc Generic Archer could attain 24 STR by default, if played through BG1.

Belt of strength + Hell bonus is 24 too, so any class can get 24.

If one is playing vanilla BG2 without the G3 fixpack however, Crimson Dart beats ALL ranged weapons in the game damage wise, since STR dmg gets applied to darts.

Wow. Sounds huge. Have to test it later.

[The Cow King]

Originally Posted by Bsisi

Belt of strength + Hell bonus is 24 too, so any class can get 24.

This hasn't been fixed in G3 fixpack? Imo a bug of massive magnitude.

And btw, that Half-Orc Generic Archer actually gets to 25 strength if played through BG1, I forgot the second attribute bonus from Wrath trial is STR for fighters, giving +3 STR total.

19 default
20 with tome of STR in BG1
23 with hell trial
24 with deck of many things
25 with machine of lum

Originally Posted by Bsisi

Wow. Sounds huge. Have to test it later.

I forgot however, that the STR damage gets applied only to non-magical darts, so it doesn't work with Crimson Dart.

Might even work with G3 fixpack, haven't tried.

[Bsisi]

Just tried the dart with G3 fixpack and Minsc having 18/91 str and no proficiency in darts does 8-10 damage, which looks like 1-3+3(dart)-1(no proficiency)+5(str).

This hasn't been fixed in G3 fixpack? Imo a bug of massive magnitude.

I don't know.
[/quote]20 with tome of STR in BG1
23 with hell trial[/quote] Hell trial does +2, not +3.
So 24 with Tutu and 23 w/out.

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Also Asomething, the longsword gives 24 STR for a while, so getting to this level is easy.

[The Cow King]

Originally Posted by Bsisi

Hell trial does +2, not +3.
So 24 with Tutu and 23 w/out.

Wrath Trial gives +3 STR for Generic Archer (fighter kit in tactics mod). Rangers get +2 STR +1 CON.

Wrath Trial gives +2 STR +1 primary stat, unless you have "optional, but cool" installed from G3 fixpack (which I personally never install).

These are all the bonuses you can get (excluding mods besides G3 fixpack), BG1 included:

Fear: Good: Immunity to +1 or lower weapons
Fear: Evil: +2 CON, Cloak of Bravery

Greed: Good: +2 saving throws, +20k XP
Greed: Evil: +15 HP, Blackrazor, +11k XP

Pride: Good: +20% Fire/Cold/Elec Resistance
Pride: Evil: +200k XP, +22k XP, loot

Self: Good: +10% Magic Res, -2 HP, -1 DEX, -75k XP
Self: Evil: -2 AC

Wrath: Good: +1 WIS, +1 CHA
Wrath: Evil: +2 STR, +1 primary stat

BG1, +1 all (+3 WIS)
Lum, +1 all
Deck, +1 primary

Originally Posted by Bsisi

Also Asomething, the longsword gives 24 STR for a while, so getting to this level is easy.

Angurvadal +4 gives 22 STR for 60 secs, which is pretty useless seeing you can get the same permanently from a belt.

Getting to 24 STR is definitely not easy, unless the Wrath Trial stacks with STR belt.

[Bsisi]

Updated the spreadsheet, fixed a bug where crimson dart made 1D4 instead of D3 damage, added strength bonuses to it, included whirlwind calculations.
I also added haste calculations. It's interesting because haste is quite common early on (I use it like always) and it keeps the limit of 5 attacks/round, so faster weapons get capped and perform worse then they would otherwise. Actually Gesen w/out arrows beats Tuigan here. And so does Strong Arm. And the Sling of Seeking. And so on.
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=KKM9NHRI


It's funny that the best archer seems to be not an elf with a big bow, but a half-orc with a tiny dart (and later either with a crossbow or with a sling, depending on your cheese toleration).

---------- Added 0 hours, 3 minutes and 9 seconds later... ----------

Angurvadal +4 gives 22 STR for 60 secs, which is pretty useless seeing you can get the same permanently from a belt.

My bad, sorry.

Wrath Trial gives +2 STR +1 primary stat, unless you have "optional, but cool" installed from G3 fixpack (which I personally never install).

Thanks for the info. I install it always.
BTW http://www.gibberlings3.net/ seems down.

[The Cow King]

Originally Posted by Bsisi

BTW http://www.gibberlings3.net/ seems down.

Yea it sucks, something to do with the bot spam in the forums.

[Bsisi]

I did one more test with the dart, gave Minsc a poition of strength...and he did the same 8-10 damage.
I searched the G3 docs and it says:

Regular darts had a number of issues that needed to be addressed. Unlike all other darts, they were not setting attacks per round to 3, were doing slashing damage instead of missile, and were applying strength bonuses to their damage.

So yes, there is a fix, but it goes the other way
Now I don't understand the 8-10 dmg/hit though...

[T2Bruno]

Does the "optional but cool" fixpack install change the reward for the "good" trial or just make it so taking the evil route will not cause a ranger to fall? If your ranger archer falls they lose all the special abilities of a ranger -- I'm not sure if that includes additional damage from the archer class.

[Bsisi]

Optional But Cool: Remove Second Attribute Bonus for Evil Path in Wrath Hell Trial
If the protagonist selects the 'evil' option when speaking to Sarevok in the Hell Trials, the PC gets rewarded twice with attribute bonuses. There are several factors that suggest one of the bonuses is leftover junk in the script, but there's not enough evidence of developer intent to include it in the Core Fixes.

There is nothing about falling. Anyway, core fixes contain:

Rangers and Paladins Not Falling When Taking Evil Path in Hell Trials

Ranger or paladin PCs taking the evil path in any of the hell trials should immediately fall.

So getting the STR bonus certainly causes a ranger to fall. No idea about the dmg / thac0 bonus

---------- Added 1 hours, 2 minutes and 14 seconds later... ----------

Also, interesting thing. Assuming that you don't use bolts of lightning in Firetooth and that you don't want to fall, the highest damage/round deals Archer(21) / Cleric(26) or (22/24) thanks to the Sling of Seeking, Draw Upon Holy Might and Rightous Magic. Not counting spells that a friendly cleric can cast on any archer, it's 370 dmg/round vs otherwise best 345. With 1/2 GWW + 1 WW (350 dmg/round) it's not very sustainable though.

[Bsisi]

I guess one could use Draw Upon Holy Might two times per day, but obviously you don't get to keep those.

I'm soloing the game and I'm near the end of Act 2. My STR/DEX/CON are all at 19 (I did BG1 already), but after DUHM - 24/25/25. So there's a cap. :/

---------- Added 0 hours, 6 minutes and 20 seconds later... ----------

Disregard that. I just noticed that I forgot to change a shield that gave me -1 STR. I have 25/25/25 now.

[T2Bruno]

25 has always been the cap for any stat in 1st and 2nd ed. games.

[Yoshimo's Heart]

I always liked fire tooth with the pulse ammo. very accurate, deadly, and gives you 5 attacks per round with any character. Though I am unsure what the exact stats for pulse ammo is...

[T2Bruno]

... I wonder how daggers/axes/hammers compare when wielded by a kensai.