D&D - Was 4th Edition meant to be a MMO?

[RPGWatch]

While not directly cRPG related, there are actually a couple of interesting articles about D&D today. First up the Examiner looks at comments from insiders and concludes 4th Edition was designed to help WotC transition to an in-house MMORPG:

Hasbro, envious of the success of Marvel's superhero properties into a lucrative transmedia juggernaut, gave each of its brands the goal of $100 million annual sales. The problem was that each of Wizards of the Coast's brands were viewed in isolation, which left Dungeons & Dragons, "a $25-30 million business" according to Dancey, in dires traits. The Dungeons & Dragons team hit on the idea of using the online Dungeons & Dragons Insider (DDI) to grow the brand to $50 million and potentially beyond:

"The Wizards team produced figures showing that there were millions of people playing D&D and that if they could move a moderate fraction of those people to DDI, they would achieve their revenue goals. Then DDI could be expanded over time and if/when Hasbro recovered the video gaming rights, it could be used as a platform to launch a true D&D MMO, which could take them over $100 million/year."

In the second, Rock, Paper, Shotgun points out an article in the New York Times about the decline of D&D and the plans for a new edition:

But there might yet be hope for Dungeons & Dragons, known as D&D. On Monday, Wizards of the Coast, the Hasbro subsidiary that owns the game, announced that a new edition is under development, the first overhaul of the rules since the contentious fourth edition was released in 2008. And Dungeons & Dragons' designers are also planning to undertake an exceedingly rare effort for the gaming industry over the next few months: asking hundreds of thousands of fans to tell them how exactly they should reboot the franchise.

[Blades of Vanatar]

Originally Posted by RPGWatch

[imgl] In the second, Rock, Paper, Shotgun points out an article in the New York Times about the decline of D&D and the plans for a new edition:

But there might yet be hope for Dungeons & Dragons, known as D&D. On Monday, Wizards of the Coast, the Hasbro subsidiary that owns the game, announced that a new edition is under development, the first overhaul of the rules since the contentious fourth edition was released in 2008. And Dungeons & Dragons' designers are also planning to undertake an exceedingly rare effort for the gaming industry over the next few months: asking hundreds of thousands of fans to tell them how exactly they should reboot the franchise.

If they really are reaching out to the fans for help to revitalize the franchise, I hope will see the return or a mix of the basic fundamentals of 2nd and 3rd editions.

[Blackthorne TA]

A view on how the 5th edition direction will go...

[Aldeth the Foppish Idiot]

Wow, I'm out of the loop. The last edition I was even aware of was 3rd edition. I didn't even know there was such a things as 4th edition. I take it that if it just debuted in 2008, and they are already junking it that the changes in 4th were not particularly popular.

[Rawgrim]

The 4th edition bombed bigtime, Aldeth. They even removed skillpoints in it, because it was "too complicated". Loads of things like that. Felt like playing Diablo 2 with miniatures.

[8people]

You might know it as "D&D For Dummies", Aldeth Their argument was by taking out the rules you could focus more on roleplay, but it left glaring inconsistancies and cookie cutter characters, you couldn't have a thief who specialised in locksmithing, traps and crafting but sucked at stealth. It was pretty much if you're a thief you're good at all of this list, now run along, we wouldn't want you to make too many decisions, would we?

[Rawgrim]

Also: a cyclops had 1hp. Meaning a toddler could kill one by tossing a spoon at him.

[Merlanni]

Do they not use it for the new Neverwinter game?

[Gnarfflinger]

I think they wanted the option for MMO style play, while still supporting the grass roots play among the actual players. Like my Grandmother used to say "between two chairs, you sit on the floor", and that's what may have happened to WotC with 4e. They didn't satisfy the old school, grass roots players, and they didn't tap into the MMO market...

[Topken]

The only video game that I am aware of that used the 4th ed rules is their Facebook game and that has its own issues and they just dont know how to do a proper game over there. The enegry system sucks and it was perfectly fine before they messed it majporly up and their drop tables suck and not that many npcs drop items you have to find them in chests and its just painful. SO yeah their facebook game using the 4th ed ruleset stinks and I am betting that has a small amount to do with why 4th hasnt taken off. People see the type of video game that 4th ed creates and noone wants to even give the ruleset a try.

[omnigodly]

My understanding of 4th is that they wanted to shift the balance of power in a session from the DM to the player. They succeeded. Unfortunately, that sucks since DM's are already hard to find and removing their ability to control a session is just asking for d*****baggery from the players.

4e rules wouldn't work with an MMO or anything real-time anyway. Since you only get 1 action every 6 seconds it would make for a super boring (was going to say real-time cRPG, but it just makes for boring period).

4e didn't bomb btw. It brought in a new player base while alienating (part of) the former player base. What they want to do (and what WoTC speakers have said they were aiming for) is combine the pieces of 4e that players liked with the elements of 3e players liked. The idea being that it will lead to a larger player base (easier to find groups and earn more $$$).

All that said, plenty of games and yes, even an MMO have been made with 3e/2e rules. So there's no reason to think that a different rule set would have to be made to generate an MMO.

[Topken]

omnigodly apparently you arent aware that the majority of mmorpgs excluding a single one are all based on cooldowns and performing a single action at a time which is basically what 4e is based on.

[Gnarfflinger]

My understanding of 4th is that they wanted to shift the balance of power in a session from the DM to the player. They succeeded. Unfortunately, that sucks since DM's are already hard to find and removing their ability to control a session is just asking for d*****baggery from the players.

From the very beginning, players have always came up with things that weren't in the book or weren't in the module, forcing DM's to improvise. 4e tried to refine the guidelines so that play was smoothed out a little more.

I can remember from my days as an RPGA GM many times when players had a valid idea that the module hadn't planned for. Rather than saying no, you can't do that because it's not in the adventure, I had to come up with an answer on the spot to give them the same information the module makes available that this source would logically have available. 4e just codified what DM's have had to do for years.

[omnigodly]

Originally Posted by Topken

omnigodly apparently you arent aware that the majority of mmorpgs excluding a single one are all based on cooldowns and performing a single action at a time which is basically what 4e is based on.

Pretty sure, I can use 5-6 skills in WoW in 2-3 seconds, every 2-3 seconds for 5 minute straight.

Now there's a difference between 1 action at a time and 1 action every 6 seconds. Even in WoW I can run while using CD's. SWTOR same thing. Planetside no CD's that I remember, iRO no CD's, Rifts no CD's just limits on rate of fire, Dungeons and Dragons Online uses light CD's iirc, etc. etc.

In summation:
- Majority of MMO's use skills, but not necessarily CD's.
- 3e already has an MMO, 4e would be no easier (just more boring) MMO :P
- Point was that no WoTC rep said they intended to make an MMO (at least I haven't found an article or video that has that comment).

EDIT: I do on the other hand remember commentary about the online? system for playing 4e that costs a monthly fee? I have no idea if it ever actually went up though .


@Gnarfinger

Never opened the DMG because I hated the first 10 pages of the PHB . My comment about the DM having no power is nearly a direct quote from one of the Q&A videos WoTC had up on their site in April or May when they were discussing why 4e is going away so soon and 5e is up and coming.

[Gnarfflinger]

I must not have seen that video. I'm going from what I read of 4e and my experience with previous editions.