Thief questions

[Xyx]

I may have to roll up a Thief for my next bhaalspawn... but I always considered Thieves to be a bit of a let-down compared to spellcasters. Maybe I'm not doing it right. My experience is limited to Imoen and Jan, which I treated more like "mages with benefits".

I need my Thief to pick locks. What sort of Pick Locks scores does this require throughout SoA and ToB? I had Jan raise it up to about 150% just in case and ran into a few locks he couldn't open. I don't mind memorizing a few Knock spells, but I'd hate to have to rest every time I try to open a few chests.

I also need my Thief to detect traps. What sort of Find/Remove scores does this require? Does a higher score mean traps are detected sooner? I again had Jan raise it up to about 150%, but he sure took his time detecting traps I knew were there, and he accidentally set a few off as well. If it's not reliable, I might as well use Minor Spell Turning.

I may also want to backstab a bit. How much Hide in Shadows is required for that? Just how big is the "back" angle? 180 degrees? What are good backstabbing weapons? Celestial Fury? Blackrazor? Carsomyr (assuming a Fighter dual or multi)? Staff of the Ram? Staff of the Magi? Iron Golem fists (lol)? Does all of the damage get multiplied, including stuff like bonus fire damage? Do enemy mages still cast their prep Stoneskin if you sneak up to them? Which big baddies have unexpected immunity to backstabbing?

How does Detect Illusions work? I always assumed it kind of happened automatically, but I never noticed Jan doing anything with it despite a score of 150% and looking for traps all the time.

How does Set Snares work with Spike Trap? Does a low score cause the ability to fail? Does 100% guarantee success?

Other than Use Any Item and Spike Trap, which HLAs are worth picking?

I suppose I should dual- or multiclass. I'm a purist, so I won't be installing any fancy mods. Just the fixpack. Which of these is "best"?

• Kensai 13/Thief
• Berserker 13/Thief
• Wizard Slayer 13/Thief (Carsomyr!)
• Fighter/Thief multi (HLAs!)
• Thief/Mage multi (Mislead!)
• Swashbuckler 15/Mage (will I get enough skill points for ToB?)
• Pure Swashbuckler

[T2Bruno]

I personally enjoyed a cleric/thief. Once you get UAI you get to wear the Robe of Vecna and use the Staff of the Magi. Staves are the best backstabbing weapons in the game (Staff of Rynn early and Staff of the Ram later) so it's not a disadvantage to only using staves.

I find you rarely need about 100% in much of anything. When you are starting you can get various magic items to build up several stats that you won't need to pump to 100% right away. Target ~70% on most of your needed traits -- Find/Remove Traps, Open Locks, and Pick Pockets. You'll need evel less for Move Silently and Hide in Shadow. This will allow you to build up Set Snares to ~70%, then Detect Illusion.

Detect Illusion is just like having True Seeing (Sight) for unlimited number of uses per day. It's an incredibly useful skill.

Assassination is a good HLA. But the best are UAI and Spike Trap. As a cleric/thief, combining Implosion and Spike Trap will take out most things in the game.

There are a couple of very good thief guides out there (on SP and Gamefaq), you should look through those.

[Paracelsi]

You can't backstab with a weapon a thief can't normally use, like Carsomyr. The best backstab weapons are staves, being two-handed and doing the highest base damage of thief weapons. Dragons are immune to backstab, as well as a few other creatures. Most creatures in BG2 aren't though.
Not all the damage is multiplied (like bonus fire damage) though a large chunk of it will be. High level thieves should be able to reach a backstab damage of 70+, higher depending on strength and weapon used. I've seen an Assassin hit for 120+ backstab damage (they can reach x7 multiplier) and I've seen people brag about doing higher than that. These are critical hits, by the way.

100% in everything is enough for SoA, for ToB you can use items like Potions of Master Thievery or Potions of Perception to boost your skills. Detecting traps takes time, regardless of skill points. Don't forget that picking locks/disabling traps gives you XP and those numbers can add up. Thieves are a valuable early-game asset because of this.

100% in Set Traps guarantees success in setting snares. This is a particularly important skill for Bounty Hunters. A low score can cause the ability to fail, and even (worse case scenario) backfire. HLA traps are exempt, you can have a Set Traps score of 0 and you'll always succeed in setting them.

Detect Illusions works like True Sight, as T2Bruno mentioned. Try using it on invisible caster, mages using Mirror Image, mages using the Simulacrum or Mislead spells, etc.

Swashbucklers can't backstab and they get much more powerful at higher levels so I wouldn't dual-class one.

[hannibal555]

I can recommend Chris Lee's excellent Thief guide for BG2.
It is available on SP & gamefaqs and will answer almost all your questions.


edit:
Sorry Tal, didn't know, it is hosted here as well ^^.

[Np, as far as the IE games go, everything that's on GF is also on SP. -Tal]

[Xyx]

Originally Posted by T2Bruno

I personally enjoyed a cleric/thief. Once you get UAI you get to wear the Robe of Vecna

I don't think Edwin would like that. I'll also have Viccy to cover my clerical needs.

Are there any particular advantages to Cleric/Thief? Is Sanctuary any good?

Originally Posted by T2Bruno

Staves are the best backstabbing weapons in the game (Staff of Rynn early and Staff of the Ram later) so it's not a disadvantage to only using staves.

OK, I'm sold!

Originally Posted by T2Bruno

Detect Illusion is just like having True Seeing (Sight) for unlimited number of uses per day.

Strange. I had Jan running a script that continually has him looking for traps, which supposedly also activates Detect Illusions, yet I had to use the Jansen Spectroscopes several times to reveal invisible opponents.

Originally Posted by hannibal555

I can recommend Chris Lee's excellent Thief guide for BG2.

Just finished reading it. Excellent work!

I think I'll go with a Kensai 8/Thief. Chris Lee makes a good case for the Bounty Hunter, but a pure Bounty Hunter seems so weak towards the end of the game. Dualling at level 8 means regaining Kensai abilities at 200,000 Experience, which still leaves me most of the game to backstab people to bits.

Thanks for the help, all!

[T2Bruno]

Sanctuary was not a real benefit, but Harm combined with any trap is deadly.

[kmonster]

I don't think kensai8/thief is a build worth playing. If you want the kensai for roleplaying reasons wait until level 9 for the extra +1 to hit and damage and proficiency point. If you dual at level 8 you effectively even get 1 proficiency point less than when dualing at level 7 since the proficiency point gained at thief level 8 can't be used for specializing.

Don't follow the guide blindly, it has many errors, think for yourself. The recommended levels for Kensai dualclassing don't make sense and multiclasses are far better than told in the guide, F/M/T has lots of skillpoints at 660,000 XP already and needs only 2,250,000 XP to cast level 6 spells for example.

[hannibal555]

I second that Kensai 9->Thief is far better than 8->Thief.
10 Thief levels are gained back easily enough.

But when searching for the rogue experience I would avoid the FMT, it is too tempting
using him as a F/M. Every Mage bit in a multiclass tends to overpower the caracter a bit.
But that might just be me. I had the most fun with a pure Bounty Hunter.
It makes a difference if you are forced to rely on thieving skills.
Nonetheless, the FMT is an immensely powerful thief.

Similarly with a multiclass F/T; this class is really powerfull but it is just too tempting to use him as an improved
fighter later on with tons of Whirlwinds and Use Any Item.

So, just for the fun factor, I'd say a pure class or dualclass is the most enjoyable but not necessarily the most powerful.

[T2Bruno]

Either Kensai 7 or Kensai 9 -- Kensai 8 is a either too soon or too late.

[Xyx]

The reason for Kensai 8 was that I'd regain my Kensai levels quickly after dualling because I'm looking for the early game Thief experience as well. If I just wanted a powerful character I'd dual at Kensai 13 (and not to Thief...) Kensai 9 requires an additional 250,000 or so Experience to regain, which is a considerable chunk of the early game. Still easily doable, of course, and quite possibly worth it. There's Imoen and Yoshimo to give me a taste, anyway. I'll have to think it over.

I'm experimenting with a script that has the party plant 6 traps at the press of a key, too. It's still a bit glitchy, but I have a feeling that I'll be using it a lot.

[Yoshimo's Heart]

Just so you know the trick with detecting illusions is that you need to be in really close range (as in almost melee range) and detecting for traps for it to work. Since you were using Jan you were likely too far away each time.

[Xyx]

That explains. It's not the "free True Sight" it's cracked up to be, then. True Sight kills Mislead clones across the map.

[Aldeth the Foppish Idiot]

Originally Posted by Xyx

The reason for Kensai 8 was that I'd regain my Kensai levels quickly after dualling because I'm looking for the early game Thief experience as well.

Then do it immediately after character creation. You'll have your thief levels almost back by the time you leave Irencus' Dungeon. I'm like kmonster in that I much prefer multi classing thieves as opposed to dual classing them, as I find a multi-classed figher/thief to be pretty much the equal to single classed fighters and thieves, and you get two sets of HLAs to boot.

The larger point is you want to dual class at a point in time where it gives the largest benefit without waiting too long when it would take forever to get your first class levels back. I agree with what others have said - dualling at 8 is suboptimal. Level 7 - which is the earliest you could do it, is also the level where all fighters get an extra 1/2 attack per round, so that's a pretty good point. However, if you really want that extra kai ability that you'd get at level 8, I'd try to hold off until level 9. You get an extra proficiency point, an extra point to your THAC0, and another roll of d10 for your hitpoints.

If you really want the thief experience though, you'll be best served by dualling immediately after you create your character. You get 89K XPs at character creation. If you dual immediately, you'll need to get to just level 8 as a thief to reactivate your fighter traits. Here's a quick XP breakdown.

Fighter 7 / Thief 8 - requires 64K XPs as a fighter (which you have at the start of the game) and then just 70K XPs as a thief to get your fighter sklls back.

Fighter 8 / Thief 9 - 125K as a fighter, 110K as a thief.

Fighter 9 / Thief 10 - 250K as a fighter, 160K as a thief.

To me, the first choice is the easy one. Just need to earn 70K - a sizable chunk of which you'll get just for completing the initial dungeon - as you already start with all the fighter XPs.

The fighter 8 / thief 9 option requires an additional 36K XPs in the fighter class, along with an additional 40K XPs in your thief class, for a total of 146K XPs - more than double the first option.

The fighter 9 / theif 10 option to me just requires too many XPs to be worth considering. You'll still need an additional 161K XPs as a fighter before you even dual, and then you'll need another 160K XPs as thief, for a total investment of 321K XPs. That's 4.5 times as many as the first option, and about 2.5 times as many as the second option.

[Xyx]

I'm going to dual at 9, and I think I'll keep Yoshimo around until I regain the Kensai levels.

I always forget Kai... Despite all the Kensai (duals) I played, I can't remember using it once. Maybe I should add it to my script... If not mage (has more important things to do) and not thief (must wait for backstab), use Kai whenever possible.

[T2Bruno]

I'm with Aldeth on the multiclassing versus dueling. Greater Whirlwind is awesome and Assassination with fighter 'to hit' is even better (especially if using improved haste). Early on your an effective fighter, later in the game you're a backstabbing demon.

[Aldeth the Foppish Idiot]

If you don't mind using SK, you could even be a multi-classed Kensai-Thief. I love SK for things like this. In the BG1 NPC in BG2 mod, I've been doing that a lot. You can make Montaron a fighter-assassin, and make Tiax a cleric-swashbuckler. It's good stuff. And of course the always popular berserker-cleric.

[Ragusa]

Originally Posted by hannibal555

I can recommend Chris Lee's excellent Thief guide for BG2.

I recommend MY thief guide, that I wrote a loooooooong time ago, with Extremist's help, bless him. It contains rather detailed information on the kits and the thief class itself. Nothing about HLA's though The guide is just too old

[Xyx]

Originally Posted by T2Bruno

I'm with Aldeth on the multiclassing versus dueling. Greater Whirlwind is awesome and Assassination with fighter 'to hit' is even better (especially if using improved haste).

How is dual class THAC0 calculated anyway? Is it just the best one, or does a Berserker 13/Mage 17 have a better THAC0 than a Berserker 13/Mage 14?

Originally Posted by T2Bruno

Early on your an effective fighter, later in the game you're a backstabbing demon.

Of course, but better than a dual-class?

Originally Posted by Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

If you don't mind using SK, you could even be a multi-classed Kensai-Thief.

Nah, I'm too much of a purist.

Originally Posted by Ragusa

I recommend MY thief guide

I had a look. The information is certainly detailed but I'm not as interested in the "what" as I am in the "why" and the obscure mechanics.

Speaking of obscure mechanics...

How does stealth really work? I get the obvious part of pressing F6, vanishing and then backstabbing people, but...

• What's the deal with the two skills? When does the one get checked, and when the other? If I keep perfectly still after hiding, does my Move Silently matter? If "Hide In Shadows Succeeded" and I enter a room full of enemies, does my Hide In Shadows still matter?
• How does "Leaving Shadows" trigger and resolve? Seems like it takes 6 seconds if no enemies are around, and anywhere between 0 and 6 seconds if they are.
• Shadows? What is this about "massive penalties in broad daylight"? Just how bad is it? Does it matter if I stand beneath a tree? What sort of skill scores do I need to not have to worry about this anymore?

[Aldeth the Foppish Idiot]

Originally Posted by Xyx

How is dual class THAC0 calculated anyway? Is it just the best one

Yes.

does a Berserker 13/Mage 17 have a better THAC0 than a Berserker 13/Mage 14?

No - because it's the berserker THAC0 in each case - in this example the base THAC0 would be 8, before taking into account proficiencies, strength, and enchantment on the weapon.

Of course, but better than a dual-class?

Yes, because you get access to BOTH sets of HLAs. A dual class won't get greater whirlwind for example.

Speaking of obscure mechanics...How does stealth really work? I get the obvious part of pressing F6, vanishing and then backstabbing people, but...What's the deal with the two skills? When does the one get checked, and when the other? If I keep perfectly still after hiding, does my Move Silently matter? If "Hide In Shadows Succeeded" and I enter a room full of enemies, does my Hide In Shadows still matter?

Pretty much - hide in shadows gets checked every round, irrespective of what your character is doing. Move silently only gets checked if you're moving.

How does "Leaving Shadows" trigger and resolve? Seems like it takes 6 seconds if no enemies are around, and anywhere between 0 and 6 seconds if they are.

I think it auto-triggers when you enter/exit a room, so you can't stealth, enter a room, and still be hiding if it's full of enemies. As for resolving it seems to be dependent on what you do. If you attack, you immediately become visible. If you don't it seems like it takes a full round to wear off.

What is this about "massive penalties in broad daylight"? Just how bad is it? Does it matter if I stand beneath a tree? What sort of skill scores do I need to not have to worry about this anymore?

There is a penalty in broad daylight. It's much easier to hide inside. I've had characters with 100% fail outdoors. I don't know how big the penalty is. It seems like if you get to 120%, it always works. That's my stop point. I usually go 100 in hard points, and then get the rest for things like boots of stealth or the like.

[T2Bruno]

Of course, but better than a dual-class?

I agree with Aldeth on this but will add it depends on when you dual. In fact, after you dual but before you exceed the level of your first class it will be much more difficult for the dual classed character. The theiving abilities will be about the same at the time your first class becomes available again and will go up slower for the multiclass. This is generally not a problem because you really don't need to be a good thief in the game.

I think the only advantage for dual classing a fighter/thief is the ability to become a grand master of a weapon. Even then, +2 to hit and +4 damage is not significantly better than +1 to hit and +2 damage -- as a thief the best THAC0 you'll get is 10 while it's zero for a fighter. For comparison a fighter gets THAC0 of 10 at 11th level. So even the additional +3 to hit and damage from kensai at 8th level is only going to get you a THAC0 of 8 and you'll get down to a THAC0 of 5 at 21st level thief (for a kensai/thief 8/21). For the same number of experience points the multiclass (F/T 13/15) will be at THAC0 of 7, but will eventually get down to -1 while the dual classed character remains stagnant in combat ability (except HLAs).

Even though the kensai/thief will have a better THAC0 for a good portion of the game, the lack of armor and bracers will be a liability. Overall I think it's a wash with the multiclass becoming more powerful by ToB.

On the other hand, taking the kensai to 13th level and adding the grandmastery fix will make the dual classed kensai/thief significantly more capable in battle, perhaps eclipsing the multiclass -- just realize the xps from the first class do not count toward total xps to gain HLAs. While the multiclass only needs 3 million xp total to unlock HLA's, the dual class needs 3 million xp in the second class.

[Yoshimo's Heart]

Originally Posted by Xyx

That explains. It's not the "free True Sight" it's cracked up to be, then. True Sight kills Mislead clones across the map.

Just think of it as free close range true sight which is just awesome. You were going to wear boots of speed right? Well that will put you in close quickly and then you can run away if needed.

[Xyx]

Hmm... now I'm tempted to dual at 13, but then I'll miss out on a lot of early game backstabbing. Then again, I do plan on keeping Yoshimo around until Immy returns.

"All the world is blind to my passing."
"All the world is blind to my passing."
"All the world is blind to my passing."
"All the world is blind to my passing."
"All the wor-"

I wish he was a little better at hiding already.

Say... how does burgling work? I had to steal that stupid Lathander statuette, but I reloaded a couple of times after the alarm went off. Seems like the alarm goes off if anyone can see the safe you take it from. Hiding in shadows didn't do anything here. Dawnmaster Kreel walks around a lot and the guards go away at night, so a non-thief seems just as capable of stealing the statuette. I was kind of disappointed when Yoshimo immediately became visible when he took it (and set off the alarm.) Am I doing it wrong?

[Montresor]

My favorite way of stealing the statuette is to wait for nightfall when the guards are gone, then go to the temple of Lathander. The alarm does indeed go off if anyone sees you taking the statuette.

Send everybody except your thief out of the temple and have the thief hide in shadows (as long as he is visible, Kreel is going to stick around). Wait for Kreel to go away, then open the safe and nick the statuette.

[kmonster]

It's not worth waiting longer than level 9 with dualclassing, 1,000,000 fighter XP spent means 4-5 less thief levels even after dualing is complete, that's about 11 hitpoints, 113 skillpoints, 4-5 HLAs, ... for barely anything which supports the thief role. Level 13 is only worth it if you don't use your thief options for battle or cheat up your XP to the XP cap.

The good thing about having Yoshimo in your party is that you can ignore locks and traps (as higher level character he'll yield more XP anyway) and concentrate in stealth from the beginning, making your character an effective backstabber right from the start of the dualing period.

[Aldeth the Foppish Idiot]

It is certainly possible - just inadvisable - to wait until Level 13 to dual class. (You'll get yet another proficiency point as compared to 9, and you'll get the automatic +1/2 attack per round bonus that all fighter/paladin/rangers get at 13.) However, you're really waiting a LONG TIME to have both classes active. You will complete the majority of SoA as either a fighter or a thief.

Level 13 Fighter requires 1,250,000 XPs. Level 14 Thief requires 880,000 XPs. So you'll need 2,130,000 XPs to have both of them active. To put that in perspective, a full party of six characters will generally earn about 3,000,000 XPs each by the end of SoA. So you're only going to have your character the way you want him for about 1/3 of the game. (Less actually - the XPs your really start ramping up in Chapter 5. You'll probably complete 5 of the 7 Chapters before hitting that mark.)

If you're going to wait that long, to me it only would make me want to play a multi-class more. For the same number of experience points, you'll be a 12th level fighter, and a few thousand XPs shy of 15th level as a thief.

My argument for multi classing really boils down to two factors. 1) The big thing is HLAs. Once you start earning HLAs in ToB, they are going to be your go-to skills. Multi classed characters can chose from both sets of HLAs, and they can mix and match anyway they want - you can pick a thief HLA when earning a fighter level up, and vice versa. And there's a lot of skills you'll want. All 3 of the special thief traps are good, and assassination is a must have (unless you're a single class thief). On the fighter side, you're probably going to have mostly greater whirlwinds. All the deathblows and greater deathblows aren't going to be worth it to you, because they only work up to a certain level of monster, and assassination is going to have a huge damage output that nothing is immune to (unless such a creature is immune to backstab - that's what whirlwind and greater whirlwind are for.)

2.) Single classed varieties of fighters and thieves plateau fairly early. A figher essentially stops improving beyond level 20. You don't get any more increases to THAC0, you've only been getting +3 hp/level for a while, and the only real improvement is in your HLAs. Thieves are even worse. Their backstab multiplier of x5 maxes out at Level 13. You still earn 25 thieving skill points to distribute upon level up, but at a certain point, those bonuses are superfluous. You probably have bonuses from a high dexterity score, and have equipped yourself with items that improve your abilities further. By the time I start ToB, I usually have 100 or more in all my thieving abilities, and that's with a multi classed thief. Sure, a single classed thief can have in excess of 200 in everything by the end of ToB, but that's far in excess of everything you'll need to do. (As an example, I am unaware of any benefit of going over 100% in detect illusion and set traps. I also do not believe that there's any benefit of exceeding 100% in find traps or pick locks, although I will concede that many of characters have more than 100%, because I raise them to 100% to guarantee success in the early going, and then later equip items that raise it further.)

So my thinking on dual versus multi classed characters is that the multi class is significantly better in the early part of the game - certainly better all the way up to the point where you re-activate the abilities of your first class. Then once your re-activate your first class abilities, the dual classed character is better, but then shortly after that, HLAs become available, and the multi classed character again is the superior choice. Prior to the release of ToB, I was of the exact opposite opinion, because there were no HLAs, and SoA ends at the exact point that dual classed characters are noticeably better than multi classed characters (i.e., right before you hit 3 million XPs, and HLAs become available).