A darn shame...

[Z-Layrex]

Isn't it just deppresing how ignored Torment is...?
Most people who've played it say that it's the best AD&D CRPG they've ever played, and yet it's done so awful in sales terms. When you play it you can see the sheer amount of effort put into the game environment and dialogue. Imagine being someone who spent many days and nights putting imense hours into making this marvolous game in the image that millions of people will be playing it for the next ten years, and on the first month of release it sell a handfull of copies. I'd be absoulutly crushed. Maybe thats why newer games like BG2 and IWD made by BIS are of less quality. I bet they just can't risk putting so much effort into a game and it not selling. It's easily (in my own opinion) THE best game ever made and i doubt BIS will ever surpass this quality of atmosphere in any other of their AD&D games.
It's a crying shame...

[Extremist]

We had many discussions on this matter and I did saw much talk about it on BIS boards.

The problem wasn't in the game itself - the problem was in marketing. Just imagine posts like "I bought PST without knowing what it is, but I was searching for any RPG...".
I can link you on the thread at BIS boards that contains this post if you want.

Besides ordinary people who don't visit SP and BIS, half of forums' regulars don't know what PST is.

As I've said, the problem was the lamest marketing I've ever seen about some game. There were few pics and lame trailer - without letting you know what is the game about. If that is the kickass game marketing, then I'm Transcendent One himself.

Not to say that one kickass game more got the same destiny. This was Ion Storms' one.
Anachronox.
Try it sometime. It is not as good as PST, no game can be like that, but I had more fun with it than with IWD, BG1 and BG2.

[Platter]

It's true, Z-Layrex. Very depressing.

[Bombur]

I'm not sure I agree. I mean, PST is definitely cool and worth playing, but I prefer BG2 simply because I like the genre better. PST isn't about traditional mythologically based AD&D. It's more sci-fi/horror with AD&D rules. But take that with a grain of salt -- I'm no third edition fan, or even second. By the time the first edition Fiend Folio had come out I thought AD&D was heading off the deep end. Too much Lovecraft, not enough Tolkien.

I have a much harder time identifying with the PC in PST. He's gross and creepy, like undead but not really -- nobody I would want to be. Then there's the whole problem with the main plot copying significant elements from BG2. Also, the end is a huge letdown unless you manage to pump all your stats "through the roof" before you get "to the roof."

Other major downers for me are things like the absense of missle weapons (unless you happen to be a robot) and armor, and the major lack of stores. Sigil is supposed to be the hub of the multiverse, and it has no evident means of incoming money except trade and travel. So where are all the merchants? These things make the game harder, which is good, but they also put a damper on the role-playing experience.

Still, I enjoy PST for its challenges, and think its worth multiple plays through it. It has great features that really ought to be used more, like switching back and forth with dual- and triple-classing, and not losing fighting abilities when you do that -- it's much more realistic. Plus you have the whole "alignment is determined by your actions" thing happening. Probably the best innovation in PST is the way your ability stats affect your dialogue options. For example, it's a great way to keep smart gamers from projecting their own intelligence into a character with a lame intelligence and/or wisdom. I might know the right answer, buy the game won't let my stupid character figure it out until I raise his stats. Very cool twist. I'd like to see the next game these new twists, but return to a more classic setting.

[Megazell]

For me it is the opposite. I can not play too many RPGs with Classic Races and environments. I mean games like PST and Arcanum add flavor and change that RPG world needs. At least to keep my interest.

[Platter]

Bombur;

I have a much harder time identifying with the PC in PST. He's gross and creepy, like undead but not really -- nobody I would want to be.

How can you play through PST and think Nameless One is creepy? He's (potentially, anyway) intelligent, insightful and caring. The things that make him 'creepy', well, you are not supposed to want to be that way. The point of the game is to reverse the condition, is it not?

Then there's the whole problem with the main plot copying significant elements from BG2.

When they started making PST, BG1 was still being developed! Well, well, who stole from who? (Also, you may notice in BG2 the presence of Dak'kon's Zerth Blade and Vhailor's Helm. And one of the magic users in Spellhold sees a walking grey corpse talking to a pillar of skulls.).

Also, the end is a huge letdown unless you manage to pump all your stats "through the roof" before you get "to the roof."

The less able you are to play the game, the less you will enjoy it. Is PST really unique in this?

Other major downers for me are things like the absense of missle weapons (unless you happen to be a robot) and armor, and the major lack of stores. Sigil is supposed to be the hub of the multiverse, and it has no evident means of incoming money except trade and travel. So where are all the merchants? These things make the game harder, which is good, but they also put a damper on the role-playing experience.

It would have been neat if Nameless One could use ranged weapons, and maybe if the other NPCs could use a greater variety of weapons.

I believe there is actually an entire ward of Sigil that is purely Merchants. This ward was not in PST. You only saw a small portion of Sigil in PST. No doubt more games in the Planescape setting were planned that would have covered much more of the setting. It's even mentioned in an old interview that they were thinking about it... no link, sorry. Hell, PST was not the only Planescape game they ever started making, just the only one they finished.

And just to spam you a little: I made some armors for PST.

[Extremist]

Then there's the whole problem with the main plot copying significant elements from BG2.

Actually the stealers, imitators and copycats were at Bioware. In BG2 is copied the plot of removing the soul from the main character. It is crapshit copy of PST main plot where from Nameless One was removed - his Mortality.

[This message has been edited by Extremist (edited April 08, 2002).]

[Bombur]

Oops. My bad. I didn't realize PST came out before BG2 (can I blame that on marketing?). Guess the copying went the other way around.

On the creepiness, yeah, the point is ultimately to reverse it -- but you don't figure that out until you are well into the game. You have to commit to the character before you have any hope of liking him. Plus, you still have to do a lot of creepy stuff, or at least the game is designed to reward creepiness, like biting off your finger, swapping out eyeballs, letting people and pillars eat pieces of you, letting people dig in your intenstines, tearing off pieces of your skin and writing on it with blood, etc. Plus, it seems like the most common building material in Sigil is corpses. Lots of items, weapons, buildings, etc. made from skin, bone, whatever -- yuck!

As far as the ending goes, I disagree that it is about how well you play the game. The better you are at surviving, and the less senseless killing you do, the lower level you are by the time you make it to the roof, hence you have much lower ability scores. You also have lower scores if you have been playing with a larger party because you have had to share experience. In that case, if you don't happen to have brought the proper enhancements with you, or if you don't bring your whole party into the final sequence so that you can harvest their equipment before meeting your mortality (unless you personally carry all the ability enhancers), you have no hope of getting the dialog option to finish the game satisfactorily (by which I mean you manage to save your party members' lives -- killing your mortality in battle is easy). A good (aligned) character might well decide to leave people behind in order to keep them safe, especially knowing that they will be separated on the other side, as opposed to taking them along as tools like poor Deionarra -- especially after Morte spills the proverbial beans. Besides, given the fact that a nameless one with any stats can get the special weapon made and can actually kill himself with it, and is supposedly actually planning to do so, it doesn't make sense that only the most ingenious, wise and charismatic nameless one's can think of "threatening" to kill themselves with it -- particularly in light of all the other bluffs the character is capable of throughout the game. That's just plain... plane? ... playin' silly.



[This message has been edited by Bombur (edited April 09, 2002).]

[Platter]

As far as the ending goes, I disagree that it is about how well you play the game. The better you are at surviving, and the less senseless killing you do, the lower level you are by the time you make it to the roof, hence you have much lower ability scores.

Considering most of the experience in Torment comes from dialog, you are just flat out, %100 wrong.

In that case, if you don't happen to have brought the proper enhancements with you, or if you don't bring your whole party into the final sequence so that you can harvest their equipment before meeting your mortality (unless you personally carry all the ability enhancers), you have no hope of getting the dialog option to finish the game satisfactorily (by which I mean you manage to save your party members' lives

My first time through I had 5 companions throughout the whole game and my stats were good enough for the best endings. Remember you can start off your stats as high as 18 (which I didn't even do that game).

Besides, given the fact that a nameless one with any stats can get the special weapon made and can actually kill himself with it, and is supposedly actually planning to do so, it doesn't make sense that only the most ingenious, wise and charismatic nameless one's can think of "threatening" to kill themselves with it

Once you have the Blade of the Immortal it does not matter what your stats are -- you can threaten him with it no matter what and it will work.
You can use a high Wis or Cha to bring up other ways of convincing him to merge.

[Bombur]

(Sorry I don't know how to make the neat quotes.) You wrote: "Once you have the Blade of the Immortal it does not matter what your stats are -- you can threaten him with it no matter what and it will work. You can use a high Wis or Cha to bring up other ways of convincing him to merge."

Not true. I had extremely high intelligence (enhanced by charms to about 24) and high charisma (enchanced by minty candy to 23 or so), with a wisdom of 15, and I had the blade of the immortal. The the right dialog options still would not display until I reloaded from a save prior to leaving through the mortuary portal and bought some tattoos to up my wisdom.

As far as being 100% wrong goes, I won't respond in the spirit of that comment. However, I will point out that a good player can make it to the roof without completing many of the peripheral quests in the game, and therefore can meet the final challenge with a relatively low-level character. A good-player can also bypass many opportunities to advance in levels by killing things. Yes, many experience points come from dialog and quests, but you can get tons of points by killing abishai and shadows too. For example, you can level up practically indefinitely by killing those greater shadows that continue to spawn on the negative material plane. The abishai on Baator provide a similar opportunity, as do those wandering the wards of Sigil. At 7,000 to 10,000 exp. points a piece, experience from kills can quickly equal that from quests and dialog.

[AMaster]

Bombur, whether or not you can get tons of xp by killing respawning monsters you DO NOT HAVE TO DO THAT to get your stats "throught the roof" My first time through I did less than half the subquests and no random killing, and I managed to get everything up to 20 or better.

Did you just never use the bronze sphere? because that would explain your problem. unless your planning on killing hundreds of greater shadows, you'll never match the 2 million xp from that thing

[Platter]

I had extremely high intelligence (enhanced by charms to about 24) and high charisma (enchanced by minty candy to 23 or so), with a wisdom of 15, and I had the blade of the immortal. The the right dialog options still would not display...

Well you just didn't notice the options, then. You can check the dialog file yourself with programs like Infinity Explorer .

As for the 'good player' thing, well, a good player could get himself permanently killed soon after leaving the Mortuary if he wanted to... but why would he do that?
Maybe the reason you had a hard time fighting was because you missed a lot of experience that the dialogs give you. After all, in D&D the only real thing that determines your fighting abilities is experience.
Hell, I've even played as a mage who fought more than cast spells... still no problem.
I never spend a great amount of time killing things in Torment and always go for the peaceful dialog solutions... this leads to more than enough experience.
The one time when my stats where not 'through the roof' at the end was the game I decided to just be violent and kill everything.
Don't forget that a higher Wisdom gives you higher experience bonuses.

One last thing... for most of the fights you are immortal, and have the natural ability to raise your party members! And there is usually a place to rest nearby for most of the large battles. A good or bad player can fight all he wants. How the hell could you find combat difficult?

(My points may not seem to all be directed at the same issue... but that's because I can't quite tell what your point is anymore.)

[This message has been edited by Platter (edited April 10, 2002).]

[Bombur]

I didn't miss the dialog options -- they aren't there. I reloaded the saved games and still could not get the dialog option to merge without astronomically high stats. I know the dialog options exist in the dialog file because I was able to get them with really high stats, but in my game those options aren't offered to me until my stats are extremely high (incidentally, Explorer 0.75 won't open the dialog.tlk file from my game, gives me an error message every time). I don't know why such variation might exist, but perhaps it is due to a different build (I'm running the 2CD version). When I initially encountered this problem, I spent a day systematically trying every dialog option, all to no avail. As soon as I went back and raised my stats, I immediately was offered the proper options.

The first time I finished the game I was about 13th level when I got to the negative material plane, 16th when I finished. Beginning with 75 ability score points, and accounting for the few chances in the game for permanent ability score increase, that still did not leave me anywhere close to having 18's across the board. I just reloaded and replayed the last sequence of that first game to verify the results.

I was not able to get the bronze sphere to work, but having just replayed that scenario I now realize it was because I missed a dialog option there. Had I completed that dialog correctly, I would have had 2.5 million exp. or so more, and that would have given me the necessary stats to merge with my mortality.

Anyway, with my lower (pre-sphere) stats, and with the blade of the immortal, I could not get any dialog options to merge with my mortality, whether by force of will or by threat.

As far as combat being difficult goes, I have no idea what you're talking about. I never said it was difficult. But even if it were, I try to play the game without ever dying. After all, the premise is that I lose my memories when I die, and that I become less and less myself when I die, and that when I die shadows are created, and that when I die someone else dies in my place. It is no slight matter to die under these conditions, even if the game doesn't penalize me.

Anyway, if you have forgotten my point, it was simply this: I didn't like the way the ending played out the first time I went through, it was anticlimactic. Like I said, maybe my game is buggy. Or maybe it all rides on the sphere. I still have the same gripes about it, though. If you get a character to confront Mr. Mortality, and you've got the blade of the immortal, you ought to be able to merge, with or without the sphere. It's too nit-picky with the dialog options and required specific plot line for someone like me who doesn't like to reload or break character.

[This message has been edited by Bombur (edited April 10, 2002).]

[Platter]

Like I said, the better you can play the game the more you will enjoy it. If you had done the dialog option with the incarnation that allowed you to use the sphere, you would have had the dialog options with your mortality.

As for the option to threaten him with the blade not showing without high stats, well that must be a bug, or because you have the 2CD version.

[This message has been edited by Platter (edited April 11, 2002).]

[Bombur]

First, please let me say that I agree wholeheartedly that the better you can play the game the more you will enjoy it. And if the 4CD version lets you merge as long as you have the blade of the immortal, then it removes a huge gripe I have about the ending.

The sphere dialog with the good incarnatin, however, is still problematic. It is no flaw in playing style to engage the good incarnation in a discussion regarding his willingness to merge. Such a discussion with the practical incarnation is possible without obligating nameless one to attempt an immediate merger with him.

However, once nameless asks the good incarnation about his willingness to merge, the dialog unavoidably proceeds to the point of merging without offering the option to discover that this incarnation is the first. This is a major flaw, in my opinion, that significantly impacts the outcome of the whole game. There should be a dialog option to continue talking about various subjects or to quit the conversation without forcing the merger. This is simply a poorly conceived piece of dialog. Missing the sphere under such a construct is not the fault of poor playing style, it is the fault of poor foresight in programming.

Please don't get me wrong -- I think it's a great game -- I'm just saying it's got some problems that need to be worked out with the ending. Now, from the sounds of it, the 4CD version doesn't have the blade problem I mentioned. Is it also possible that the 4CD version does not have the forced merger problem?

[Platter]

All versions have the forced merger thing. I agree this is very annoying. It leads to a lot of people never being able to use the Bronze Sphere. But maybe that was its point? I dunno, to make it harder. It is a lot of experience, after all.
But that is why I always save before talking to important people. As soon as the forced merger happened before I was done asking questions, I reloaded.

[This message has been edited by Platter (edited April 13, 2002).]

I've been playing this game a lot, and im not even that far yet, and i already think that this is one of the greatest CRPG's ive ever played. It runs a lot better than BG on my computer, and imo looks a lot nicer. I cant wait to see how the story unfolds.

[ejsmith]

I'm hammering through Torment now.

The plot is kinda twisty. And if I wasn't using the walkthrough, I would *NEVER* have found the 'story-line' triggers, that move you to the next act. Like those Sensate spheres, where you get a little chat from Dionarra/Ravel/Paranoid. It would have taken me months before I would have stumbled on that one.

Anyways, there is something catchy about it.

[SleepleSS]

You needed a walktrough for that? I think that was one of the easy parts of the game! I had more power with entering the siege tower, than with finding my stones! Somethings are hard to find, but I think you spoil it if you play whit a WT! The only thing Ilooked up in a WT was something aboud Ravels Portal, and maybe 3 or 4 other thingies (Freeing Ignus is one of them, I just couldn't find the right persons )