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Abortion horror in PA

Discussion in 'Alley of Dangerous Angles' started by The Great Snook, Jan 19, 2011.

  1. The Great Snook Gems: 31/31
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    Reader warning. Do not read if you are squeamish.

    From Yahoo

    PHILADELPHIA – A doctor who provided abortions for minorities, immigrants and poor women in a "house of horrors" clinic has been charged with eight counts of murder in the deaths of a patient and seven babies who were born alive and then killed with scissors, prosecutors said Wednesday.

    Dr. Kermit Gosnell, 69, made millions of dollars over 30 years, performing as many illegal, late-term abortions as he could, prosecutors said. State regulators ignored complaints about him and failed to inspect his clinic since 1993, but no charges were warranted against them given time limits and existing law, District Attorney Seth Williams said. Nine of Gosnell's employees also were charged.

    Gosnell "induced labor, forced the live birth of viable babies in the sixth, seventh, eighth month of pregnancy and then killed those babies by cutting into the back of the neck with scissors and severing their spinal cord," Williams said.

    Patients were subjected to squalid and barbaric conditions at Gosnell's Women's Medical Society, where Gosnell performed dozens of abortions a day, prosecutors said. He mostly worked overnight hours after his untrained staff administered drugs to induce labor during the day, they said.

    Early last year, authorities went to investigate drug-related complaints at the clinic and stumbled on what Williams called a "house of horrors."

    Bags and bottles holding aborted fetuses "were scattered throughout the building," Williams said. "There were jars, lining shelves, with severed feet that he kept for no medical purpose."

    The clinic was shut down and Gosnell's medical license was suspended after the raid.

    Gosnell and four workers were charged with murder, while five others were charged with controlled drug violations and other crimes. None of the employees had any medical training, and one, a high school student, performed intravenous anesthesia with potentially lethal narcotics, Williams said.

    All 10 defendants were taken into custody, authorities said.

    Two listed numbers for Gosnell in Philadelphia have been disconnected. Defense lawyer William J. Brennan, who represented Gosnell during the investigation, noted that the doctor served patients in a low-income city neighborhood for decades.

    "Obviously, these allegations are very, very serious," Brennan said.

    The grand jury said the woman who died was a patient who came to Gosnell's clinic for an abortion and died of cardiac arrest because she was given too much Demerol. Gosnell wasn't at the clinic at the time, but directed his staff to administer the drug to keep the woman, a healthy 41-year-old woman, sedated until he arrived, prosecutors said.

    Gosnell has been named in at least 46 malpractice suits, including one over the death of a 22-year-old mother who died of sepsis and a perforated uterus in 2000. Many others also involve perforated uteruses. Gosnell sometimes sewed up the injury without telling women their uteruses had been perforated, prosecutors said.

    Gosnell charged $325 for first-trimester abortions and $1,600 to $3,000 for abortions up to 30 weeks. Abortions are legal up to 24 weeks gestation in Pennsylvania, although most doctors won't perform them after 20 weeks, prosecutors said.

    Some women came from across the mid-Atlantic for the illegal late-term abortions, authorities said. White women from the suburbs were ushered into a separate, slightly cleaner area because Gosnell believed they were more likely to file complaints, Williams said.

    "People knew near and far that if you needed a late-term abortion you could go see Dr. Gosnell," Williams said.

    Few if any of the sedated women knew their babies were born alive and then killed, prosecutors said. Many were first-time mothers who were told they were 24 weeks pregnant, even if they were further along, authorities said.

    Gosnell got his medical degree from Thomas Jefferson University in Philadelphia and is board certified in family practice. He started, but did not finish, a residency in obstetrics-gynecology, authorities said.

    "He does not know how to do an abortion. He's not board certified," Assistant District Attorney Joanne Pescatore said. "Once he got them there, he saw dollar signs and did abortions that other people wouldn't do."

    I am very pro-choice as I subscribe to theory that I don't like it when anyone else tells me what to do, so what right do I have to tell someone else what to do. However, this guy is going to set the pro-choice movement back by decades. When the pro-life people start to find out they are going to go ballistic.
     
  2. Silvery

    Silvery I won't pretend to be your friend coz I'm just not ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran

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    I think that if I met him I would kill him.

    I'm totally serious. I would kill him
     
  3. joacqin

    joacqin Confused Jerk Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    He didnt perform abortions did he? He was convicted of murder so he murdered people. It can also hit the anti-choice movement as these are the kinds of places that would become much more common if abortion was banned.
     
  4. Silvery

    Silvery I won't pretend to be your friend coz I'm just not ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran

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    He murdered children. I KNOW a baby can be born and survive at 7 months. They weren't foetus's, they were children
     
  5. Chandos the Red

    Chandos the Red This Wheel's on Fire

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    That's exactly right.
     
  6. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    How could that animal possibly sleep at night? If boggles the mind that this went on for so long without coming to the light of day.
     
  7. 8people

    8people 8 is just another way of looking at infinite ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran

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    [​IMG] Death is too good for some people.
     
  8. Blades of Vanatar

    Blades of Vanatar Vanatar will rise again Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Ving Rhames character Marsellus Wallace in Pulp Fiction: "I'ma call a coupla hard, pipe-hittin' niggers, who'll go to work on the homes here with a pair of pliers and a blow torch. You hear me talkin', hillbilly boy? I ain't through with you by a damn sight. I'ma get medieval on your ass." Twould be fittin methinks.
     
  9. NOG (No Other Gods)

    NOG (No Other Gods) Going to church doesn't make you a Christian

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    As I'm sure you all know, I'm staunchly pro-life, with only one exception. Still, I publicly admit that this guy is not at all representative of the pro-choice movement in general. I don't honestly think the actual action is all that different (i.e killing a viable child vs killing a foetus that hasn't yet developed to that point), but at least what they do is sanitary and designed to protect the mothers.

    And they don't keep bodyparts scattered about the office. *shudder*
     
  10. LKD Gems: 31/31
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    This is going to re-ignite the discussion in America, and not in a unifying way.
     
  11. Drew

    Drew Arrogant, contemptible, and obnoxious Adored Veteran

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    I'm not so convinced of this. A substantial majority of Americans believe that abortion should be safe and legal in the first trimester, before the fetus is viable -- even if they aren't themselves comfortable with the idea of abortion. A vast majority believe that abortion should not be legal in the third trimester. The real debate is about what to do in the second trimester, that gray area where viability is less certain, and I doubt this is going to alter the substance of that debate in any meaningful way. It might get more shrill for a while, but that debate occurs so far beyond the margins of public opinion (pro-lifers attacking the morning after pill; pro-choicers defending partial birth abortion) that little to no real change in the abortion law is ever on the table.

    I think I'm going to throw up. Sick bastards like him and his staff make me think about re-considering the death penalty. What really bothers me, though, is that it isn't just him or his staff. If there weren't people seeking late-term abortions (excepting of course those rare instances when the abortion is precipitated by a legitimate medical need), men like him wouldn't be able to ply their trade. What makes a woman carrying a healthy, viable 26+ week fetus and seeking abortion without any sound medical need any different from this doctor?
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2011
  12. Silvery

    Silvery I won't pretend to be your friend coz I'm just not ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran

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    Desperation I think.
     
  13. Drew

    Drew Arrogant, contemptible, and obnoxious Adored Veteran

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    I don't really think so. I fail to see any measurable difference between delivering a viable child and then killing it as opposed to killing a viable child before delivering it. If I kill someone out of desperation, he's still dead -- and probably doesn't give a rat's ass about whether I killed him out of malice, desperation, or ignorance. The end result doesn't change.
     
  14. Silvery

    Silvery I won't pretend to be your friend coz I'm just not ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran

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    I didn't say it excused it, it's just a theory on why these women went there
     
  15. NOG (No Other Gods)

    NOG (No Other Gods) Going to church doesn't make you a Christian

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    The other possibility is cost. The article did mention he preyed on the poor and underpriviledged. Maybe these women couldn't afford anything else, and he would only work once inducing birth was an option? Or, maybe, some of the women are just as much monsters as him and his staff. I won't rule that one out, either.
     
  16. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

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    The man is a quack with a degree, and he had a staff of incompetent quacks without degrees. More than the outrages he committed, what about the outrage that he was able to do for so long so despite the significant number (how many, 55?) of malpractice lawsuits against him? Why didn't the medical professional associations didn't revoke his license? This is not just him, but a blatant lack of professional oversight.

    The only reason why he probably was able to get away with this for so long was because he preyed on the underprivileged and poor who wouldn't sue him, or couldn't afford to sue him or didn't know what to do or who didn't even know that they were even entitled to compensation. And then of course there are the women wanting illegal late abortions for whatever reason; they sure weren't to report him to the authorities having comitted criminal offences themselves.

    Considering the mayhem he caused to his patients and the obvious need for compensation in such cases, which can only be monetary - you have conservatives traditionally crying bloody murder over malpractice lawsuits, denouncing attorneys as ambulance chasers. Now what about his victims? Who is going to compensate them? Since the doctor is not going to do it voluntarily a lawsuit is the only way. Medical malpractice lawyers are the only help these women can get after the misfortune of running into a quack like this. Sobering.

    Outrages like this will be the norm after a complete ban on abortions.
     
  17. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    I really don't think so. What this guy did was illegal. Sure, late term abortion in and of itself is a criminal offense, but because these were viable babies, he's being charged with murder.

    Pennsylvania has the death penalty, and so if he's convicted of multiple counts of murder, chances are he will be put to death for his actions. (If he lives long enough - the guy is already 69, and it's not uncommon for about 10 years to pass once all the appeals are heard before someone is actually put to death. At the very least, he'll never leave the prison alive though.) The minimum penalty for murder in PA is life in prison, with no possibility of parole for at least 25 years. Again, since he's 69, even at the minimum of 25 years, it's likely a life sentence.

    So what, exactly, would the pro-life people be asking for? To outlaw that which is already illegal? The guy is either going to be put to death or imprisoned for life. He will be severely punished for his actions. I'm pro-choice, but I don't support the killing of viable fetuses, and neither does almost all pro-choice people. This isn't going to re-ignite the debate because there is no debate - virtually everyone already agrees that this guy's actions were criminal.

    Conservatives do not denounce ALL malpractice lawsuits. They oppose those in which the compensation seems far in excess of the harm done. This is especially true in Pennsylvania, as there is no legal limit of how much you can sue a doctor for irrespective of the injury.

    I have probably related this story before, but I will do so again: My brother is a doctor in the ER, and one of his fellow doctors treated a woman who came in with respiratory distress and a severe cough. They took a chest X-ray, and when nothing noteworthy showed up, they figured she had the flu, gave her a presription and sent her on her way.

    Two days later she shows up at the ER again, and this time she has full blown pneumonia, which she likely was in the early stages of developing when she was there two days earlier. She ended up spending the next two weeks hospitalized, and after she got out, she sued the hospital for $1.2 million (don't know how she came up with that number) and won.

    Even though my brother was not the attending physician he would state two things about the case. 1.) Given that the chest X-ray came back normal, the doctor's diagnosis of the flu as opposed to pneumonia is reasonable. The most common way to check for pneumonia is via a chest X-ray. 2.) Despite the mitigating factors involved, the hospital and doctor screwed up and this woman is entitled to some form of compensation - but not $1.2 million.

    My brother concedes that spending two weeks in the hospital sucks balls. He can understand that the pain and suffering endured should be worth a considerable amount - probably on the order of tens of thousands of dollars. If the woman asked for a year's salary in settlement - say something around $50,000 - the hospital probably would have settled out of court.

    The point is this - even doctors agree that there should be malpractice lawsuits and compensation for victims should be commensurate with the seriousness of the harm caused to them. And in this case, it should be a hell of a lot.
     
  18. Gaear

    Gaear ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful

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    Sounds like the state of PA kind of dropped the ball here. Restaurants get inspected regularly to ensure health standards are being met, but not abortion clinics?
     
  19. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

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    Aldeth,
    one of the things is that the US has this weird instrument of punitive damages, which, as I understand, in particular in the hands of a jury can get seriously out of hand. If the jury feels the sued party was an a**hole, they will want to punish them. I read that it allows to set the damages to thirty times the damage caused, to teach'em. That was so in iirc a case against BMW, where the damages because of some defect at a car were $ 1000, and the punitive damages awarded thirty times that because somebody found BMW was behaving badly. Preposterous. In Germany the idea is 'natural restitution'; i.e. the creation of the situation before the damaging event. The person would have gotten his $ 1000 (in fact, he has the choice to have his car fixed, or to get the money) and that's it.

    That means in the US the suing party has an interest in demonizing the sued party - and the result is in all likelihood a mud fest, with a clear incentive for escalation. The US system is actually discouraging settlements, because with the possibility of awarded punitive damages lawsuits offer to yield significantly more in damages.

    But that hasn't to do with compensations in malpractice lawsuits per se but with apparently systemic problems in the US legal system. I see these problems mainly in the aforementioned instruments of (a) quota litis agreements (in which the attorney gets a share of the damages, say a quarter or third, at times working for free (and suing at no cost risk for the party represented), which gives an incentive to drive up compensations; this is considered unethical in Europe) and (b) in the punitive damages.

    I have yet to hear conservatives to call for the abolition of punitive damages or quota litis agreements. All they propose is a cap on compensation. There may be cases in which that is just unfair. We have solved that in Germany by lists maintained by courts based on jurisdiction that suggests compensation based on injury and care requirements in case of a debilitating injury. These lists are recommendations, and not binding and courts can and do adjust based on the individual cases. But then, we try such cases by panels of specialised professional judges. Professional judges are far less easily impressed than laymen.
     
  20. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    Ragusa - quick explanation re punitive damages. At least in California, in order to be able to win punitive damages, you need to be able to show that the other side acted with malice, oppression or fraud. So, in the case of simple malpractice, you can't get that. It's a negligence standard -- i.e., a plain mistake.

    When it escalates is when you can get punies.

    I'll use the McDonald's burning coffee case as an example. If all that happened was that a heating regulator on a coffee put went out so that the coffee was too hot and the hot coffee caused those serious burns on that woman's legs, then her damages would be limited to the actual cost of her medical bills (and anticipated bills) and pain and suffering.

    When the evidence came in that McDonald's intentionally set the temperature over the top and completely disregarded several studies and reports that showed that the coffee would cause significant burns if spilled on a person, then McDonald's conduct went from simple negligence to an intentional tort. Oppression would be my guess at the standard that would allow for punies if the case were in California.

    What I think you might be mixing up is the pain and suffering component, rather than punitive damages. Pain and suffering isn't exactly quantifiable. As AFI mentioned, his brother figured that they had done something wrong and the patient should be compensated for having to stay in a hospital for a week or two. That's pain and suffering. I agree with his brother than $50K seems reasonable and $1.2 million is not. However, that's up to the jury.

    It's strange, but Pennsylvania appears to have no limit on the amount of pain and suffering damages that can be awarded, but the normally "liberal" People's Republic of California has a strict limit on such damages in medical malpractice cases of $250K (the law is called MICRA).

    So, if some doctor inadvertenly amputates your right leg when he mean to amputate your left leg and leaves you legless instead of with one leg and one prosthetic, you're entitled to whatever you medical costs may be going forward, and you can claim unlimited economic damages (i.e., if you can't earn a living because you have no legs), but the pain and suffering caused by the doctor is limited to $250,000.

    That number hasn't changed in years and was not even all that robust when it was enacted. It's pretty much useless now. Med mal lawyers don't really take cases based on pain and suffering, they take them when there are strong economic damages. So if a doctor turns an executive who makes $500K a year and is 40 years old into a vegetable by screwing something up, that case is worth multiple millions of dollars (the executive can't work any more and would have drawn that salary, plus increases, for 25 years).

    Sorry for the long-winded and slightly off topic ramble, but the malpractice angle certainly is a strong backdrop on this thread and I figured I'd lay it out so that it was understandable, in advance.
     
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