Are Jews a Race (and what exactly is race)?

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Ilmater, you're still forgetting the fact that the differences between traditionally understood races are there and they aren't the same as a mere difference in hair or eye colour between members of the same race. Why argue that it's so utterly unreliable when everyone knows it works? Isn't it politics and a notion of equality trying to overwrite what we see with our eyes?

 

Being Jewish is not a race but a nationality. I don't believe it is a race at all. Throughout a large part of their history, the Jewish people did not have a homeland, (which everyone knows). It is an extraordinary accomplishment that they did not loose their national identity during the many years that they were without a homeland. I think the religion of Judaism helped in that respect. This is the main reason why I am very supportive of Israel; I'm glad that they finally have a place, after many years of wandering and hardship, while trying to maintain that identity, especially when it would have been much easier, at some points in their history, to give up and "blend in" by renouncing their religion and national heritage.

 

I'm arguing because I'm trying to speak from a scientific standpoint and while scientific categorization is arbitrary on a structural level, i.e. choosing what makes a phylum a phylum or an order an order, but operating within that construct, the empirical data isn't arbitrary. I can't find a degree of an exoskeleton, or a degree of a central nervous system or a degree of the ability to nurse one's young. A creature either has this or not. Humans on the other hand all have melanin unless they suffer from ablinism, we all have the presence of the same bones in our face and we all make use of the same glands and chemicals. There is no ground to argue humans are different categorically from other humans. Obviously all humans have a unique genetic makeup, but they generally don't have something or lack something the majority of other humans have (I don't feel things like things like third nipples reconstitute anything of significance). Those that typically do don't last long (like the absence of portions of the cranium).

I feel the only significant division we can make within humanity is through credible study is the various cultures which we have had our formative years in and this has less to do with phenotypes and more to do with "ideas, values, beliefs and ideals". Race is a cultural idea rather then a scientific idea. I guess in a strange way it makes the concept of race more "real" then science could make it as science is only excepted because our culture believes in science. Science can fall out of favor while culture never can.

Anyway Chev we're separated by philosophy. I'm ever the logical atomist (I refuse the label logical positivist) and therefore basically a slave to empirical sciences; practical social concepts aren't particularly important to the logical atomist, only verifiable atomic facts. This far surpasses the practical application of the concept of "fact" (really messes up things like ethics and aesthetics). I understand where you're coming from, it just isn't compatible with the Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus and accepting it as a logical fact would destroy what little metaphysics a logical positive adheres to.

Anyway, you're right in the terms of western culture, but I still feel I'm right within the terms of biology. We're talking different language games .

 

I always thought the only races were human, elf, gnome, dwarf, and halfling (kender for non-purists). However, in the limited scope of reality I guess we must accept there are divisions within human... what a pain in the ass.

When in doubt, I usually first look to Webster:

race (second definition) n. 1 any of the different varieties of human beings distinguished by physical traits, blood types, etc. 2 any geographical population sharing the same habits, ideas, etc. 3 any distinct group of people.

I believe the Hebrews qualify as a distinct race using the second part of that definition.

 

T2BRUNO! you know a purist only believes in the 3 races!!!

dwarf, elf & human(way old school)

 

I'd say certainly not like white or black or Asian. But apart from cultural identity, there's a measure of ... don't want to say endogamy, but at least marrying within one's group. There are physical traits which are heritable and those are passed down in many Jewish families if not most. Sometimes you need to pay a lot of attention and know what you're looking for, and sometimes you don't notice. Depends on how it went where they lived. At any rate, just suggesting there are some anthropological traits, but not enough to warrant a separate race on par with the traditional three.

 

As I mentioned in the 'Black and White' thread, you are using the biological definition of race (and an old one at that). Race is socio-political to most people, not strictly biological. As such, Hebrews could easily be a race unto themselves. However, once you classify a group as a race they will typically be caste into a social hierarchy. Perhaps it is better to not have as many races and racial divides.

 

I agree with this wholeheartedly. A different race would be 'elven' or 'dwarven', not black or white. We are all the same race (so technically nothing is 'racism', we need a new word for it), we just have different cultures and appearances. Perhaps the things that make one group of people common to each other should be called ethnicity instead of race? Or does ethnicity imply from a specific country (i.e. American would be an ethnicity, which wouldn't cover the different subgroups inside of it)?

What other word could we use to describe what we now define as 'race'?

 

I suppose, although in the U.S., when you talk about ethnicity, you are usually referring to where your ancestry is from. For example, I'm an American, but I'm ethnically Italian and Slovak. The only people living in America who are ethnically American are the Native Americans.

I don't know there is one that really makes sense, without starting to refer to different groups of humans as animals or even livestock. I mean, all different types of domesticated dogs can interbreed and produce viable offspring. There's also all sorts of different kind of cows that all interbreed successfully (heck even buffalo are the same species as cows - they produce perfectly healthy offspring when they are bred together).

 

I agree with you about using 'ethnicity,' but I still think we shouldn't use 'race.' Saying we are different races implies we are not all the same thing - human beings (as we are the 'human race', not the 'collection of various races that make up human life.')

 

well, the word that fits best would offend to many people.
breeds
just as there are different dog breeds yet all can interbreed.

 

I have always thought Judaism was a religion and not a "race". And besides shouldn't we call them Israelis ? If Jews are an ethnic nation, to my knowledge the country's name is Isreal not "Judaistan" or "Hebrewland" or whatever.

I think we confuse ethnic and cultural background and race.

Indeed this true for the whole continent (America is a continent not a single country /rant) It is especialy hard to define "race" here. I consider myself to be french-canadian. I know as a fact, since my sister has done a great work of tracing our ancestor back to Europe. We know for a fact that first of our father's line (it was easier to trace it, since men kept their family name not women) Ultimately came from a moderately wealthy parisian in the 16th century. We also know for a fact that this perticular line which we are have only and exclusively married other french-canadian, for better or worse. So geneticaly I'm 100% French, but not culturaly. This is true for all none native americans, which includes Myself, Nakia, Splugne, DoTW, Saber, Aldeth, Death Rabbit and so many more. I think that everyone living in the American continent would think of themselves as culturaly different than European but not "race-wise" Just my

Ok, enough of this

What I'm trying to say is that, we're all human and yes we've all different physical difference. However we have many different cultural and "ethnic" background. For me the "jewish race" fall in this category I.E a common cultural background mostly defined by judaism as a religion. My English teacher is jewish but she doesn't look different than any other. She is white and looks like any other white canadian. If it wasn't the fact I knew she was jewish I wouldn't have known. I don't consider her to be a different "race", but from a different religion. (Which in itself is not a bad thing)

Ok I don't know if this post made sense

 

I watched this series on PBS and found it fascinating:
http://racerelations.about.com/od/ahistoricalviewofrace/a/dnaandrace.htm

In North America race can be very misleading. Many of us have a multiracial background. Far in the future will we all look more or less alike? I hope not. Diversity is what makes the world interesting. Already too many groups/nations are becoming westernized and losing their uniqueness. I notice it in dress. Groups that have had a beautiful, colorful, unique clothing are giving it up to dress in Western clothing (and I do not mean cowboy.)

I also saw a program on PBS that stated that there is a Black Tribe that has Jewish DNA. The lost tribes of Israel? If I find a link I will post it.

To me the term race means the differences that are obvious to the eye, skin/hair color, hair type, certain physical features such as lips, cheek bones and noses.

300 hundred years from now when scientists dig up Nakia's bones I wonder what they will make of her. After all she is a hobbit.

 

Judaism is most certainly a religion. A lot of Jews live in Israel, but not everyone who lives in Israel is a Jew, and not everyone who practices Judaism are Israelis.

Anyone who identifies the country where they as Israel is technically an Israeli. It's a whole other story though when you consider the cultural ramifications. For example, there are many Palestinians living in Israel, and I'm sure they don't consider themselves Israelis.