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Just got the boot from my regular haunt...

Discussion in 'Alley of Dangerous Angles' started by coineineagh, Jul 5, 2017.

  1. coineineagh

    coineineagh I wish for a horde to overrun my enemies Resourceful Adored

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    ...and I decided to wallow about it in the very first discussion forum I ever registered in.:)

    It's an interesting story, if anyone's interested. I need to get it straight in my head, though.

    I'll be back in a couple of hours, with hopefully a coherent tale to tell.

    --

    Well, the gist of it, from my perspective, is quite simple. And with an alarming conclusion.

    I frequently posted on a place called INTJ forum; a dot com forum that was free and open to register. The name is based on the MBTI personality type INTJ: introvert, intuitive, thinking, judging. I went to the forum for stimulating discussions with likeminded people, and I did find some of that. The forum's slogan was somethink like 'geeks, innovators, villains, virgins', which seemed quirky and benign.

    But the reality of the forum, was that a great deal of them were turbulent INTJs. Surprisingly closed-minded, even software analyses showed many of them score low in Openness, which is strikingly unexpected for INTJs. But I had found my plaything: Nothing I love more than challenging closed minds to think about things. It was not appreciated.

    INTJs, like myself, are quick to dismiss people and information as irrelevant, and we are at risk of becoming narcissistic and megalomaniacal. What I witnessed in the INTJ forum, was people gravitating to the 'coolness' of the badass INTJ personality, using it as a crutch or a justification. I might have felt the allure, myself, but I tried not to get drunk on delusions of grandeur.

    Other members of the forum, however, could not get over the manifestations of their own insecurities so easily. There was a lot of casual discrimination floating about: Asians patting themselves on the back for being of superior intelligence, hate against immigrants and blacks. One of the first topics I stumbled upon was called "IQ and race", and I crushed a half dozen race-realism ideologists (a.k.a. scientific racism) about their pseudo-scientific superiority claims.

    What I started to notice, and I wasn't the only one who noticed, was that moderation was often partisan in favour of racists. Last month, a thread titled "why are many Asians so successful in America?" was left open for a week. It contained obvious racism, but only after I got involved and dispersed the racial-supremacist circle jerk, did the entire thread get deleted. Hundreds of comments! I took to the support forum to complain about the biased moderation, again, and others confirmed that the racism had been thoroughly defeated by the time the entire thread was deleted. Moderators claimed they simply deleted a thread with too much racism, though many complained the timing was like the cavalry shooting the good guys after they'd already won.

    A few months ago, the site's owner had closed down the political subforum, because it was allegedly burdensome in terms of moderating complaint reports. A few weeks ago, the site became no longer open to public viewing, as the site's owner was not accepting new members, and made a big deal about weeding out trolls and undesirables. I got a message on FB from my uncle, asking why he couldn't view a link I sent to him, describing events during my mom's death last year.

    When I complained about the previously open forum being closed to outside viewing, my protestations were considered evidence of being 'harmful to the site owner or community'. Which is a funny way of putting it, when the site owner is essentially closing the forum. I got a warning mail yesterday, stating that I was disallowed from posting, and I had some time to back up comments and conversations I valued, before my account would be blocked. But of course, I couldn't view anything, because it appears my server address is already on a block list.

    The whole affair worries me, because I've seen what kind of extreme views are present on that forum, and I fear that without visibility and outside input, these people are likely to radicalize. Before you know it, there will be new hordes of Anders Breivikses, exchanging manifestos and making plans to assassinate liberals and immigrants. I wonder if I just witnessed the beginnings of a private forum that will be a hotbed for all kinds of extremism. There are some very insecure people there, who could easily be enticed to willingly commit all kinds of hate crimes...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 6, 2017
  2. Keneth Gems: 27/31
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    The sad part is that the MBTI theory is completely worthless and its creators or proponents have yet to produce a single test with reproducible results on any but the introversion/extraversion scale. And you don't really need a test to tell you whether or not you're an introvert. In other words, there's no such thing as actual INTJs, but there's plenty of people who enjoy labeling themselves as such. And as any other marginally desirable label, it quickly got swarmed by people who simply wanted to feel superior to others as the test gained popularity on the internet.

    A perfect breeding ground for young supremacists and impressionable folk who choose to believe in any esoteric pseudo-scientific theories simply because someone told them they were the "real" truth. Once these communities become closed to public, they turn into nothing more than echo chambers for the closed-minded where confirmation bias is a thriving norm and are no longer worth the attention of the well-adjusted.

    That said, I do think extremism has a place in the social development of cultures and shouldn't be quashed in its nascent stages simply because its undesirable. :rolling:
     
  3. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    I'm moving this to AoDA as I think that there's a possible discussion to be had on this subject.
     
  4. coineineagh

    coineineagh I wish for a horde to overrun my enemies Resourceful Adored

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    I think the mistake that people make when reading their MBTI 'horoscope', is that it's an affirmation of themselves. They accept the label, and simply defer to it once anyone complains about their behaviour. It's easy to make that mistake, because the MBTI descriptions are mostly written in positive, complimentary language. But the real value in MBTI, is in being aware of your blind spots, which are discussed, but also with very positive language, downplaying its significance.

    MBTI, like most psychology-related subjects, is still underdeveloped. But I do believe there's something there worth considering. I was very impressed by the description of my personality's blind spots, and I went to forums like that in the hopes I could learn how other 'likeminded' people dealt with theirs. The short answer is that they celebrated their weaknesses rather than seeking to improve them.
     
  5. T2Bruno

    T2Bruno The only source of knowledge is experience ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    I have found the MTBI is about 70% correct in describing people -- although Kersey is a bit better. It does a good job at identifying motivations behind certain conduct. It's an effective management tool provided you don't assume it is 100% on target.

    When I took mine one of the observations was my type is least likely to do something because 'it's always been done this way' ... knowing that much earlier in my military career would have possibly prevented a lot of pain.
     
  6. Keneth Gems: 27/31
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    I'd say 70% is a much too high estimate, considering the same person can get 5 different results on 5 different times they take the test. The part that seems like it describes you is like fortune telling: It's just vague and generic enough to fit anyone who even remotely displays the characteristics of the result. If you read the descriptions of the other personalities, you'll very likely find large portions of them that fit you in some way as well.
     
  7. coineineagh

    coineineagh I wish for a horde to overrun my enemies Resourceful Adored

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    I've taken more than ten tests from different sources. Most often I get INTJ, but on occasion I've gotten ISTJ, ENTP, ENTJ and INTP. The mistypes were often shorter tests. You need to take repeated tests for more certainty.
    Also, your type can change over time, with I/E least likely to change, and J/P most likely. I've met people who were certain of being one type, then certain of changing into another over time. A woman described to me her chronic pain altering her from INTJ to INTP.
     
  8. T2Bruno

    T2Bruno The only source of knowledge is experience ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    You also need to see the results in detail. I'm solidly into E, T, and P - but very borderline with N/S. So I can fit in ENTP or ESTP; both have some validity. At the same time there have been events in my life that now cause a reaction 'against type' but I can recognize where those came from.

    The one page descriptions are interesting but rather shallow. Where a good evaluation can help is the situational relationship profiles - Kersey dot com used to be a good reference to start down the path but there are several books that go into detail. Had I read Please Understand Me before my first marriage I would have seen the warning signs -- the book described almost exactly the issues between me and my ex by evaluating our types. It was fascinating (albeit too late - my ex was at the point of not caring why I behaved the way I did).

    The short mini-tests found on the web are notoriously poor predictors because they do not delve enough into depth and really don't evaluate the results properly.
     
  9. Keneth Gems: 27/31
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    I've never gotten anything other than an INTJ score, but even though you're supposed to answer the questions truthfully, there's simply no way you could ever give unbiased answers regarding your personality, which means you'll likely gravitate toward a certain result. After that, confirmation bias comes in, which will guarantee that most people accept the favorable result and disregard everything else as a "bad test" or perhaps even take the test again in much too short a time to get the result they want. In actuality, across every MBTI test in existence, there isn't a single one, official or otherwise, that can ensure reproducible results across a statistically viable sample. You'll find that most establish psychologists find MBTI theory to be nothing more than fanciful speculation and that virtually every study in its favor is either heavily biased or uses such a weak methodology that it renders the entire result worthless.

    That is not to say that there isn't plenty to learn from it, it's just that everything about it should be taken with a very large grain of salt and a healthy dose of common sense. Human personality isn't something you can neatly fit into 16 boxes, it's a much more elaborate and amorphous thing that needs be careful examined over time on a case by case basis if you truly wish to learn something of value about a person.
     
  10. coineineagh

    coineineagh I wish for a horde to overrun my enemies Resourceful Adored

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    Absolutely. Enneagram types are a system of categorization based on people's neuroses and fear responses. I score 5 with a 6 wing in that. People scoff at it because it's heavily influenced by how the Catholic church approaches communicating with people. But if anything, I'd argue that that's even more proof that there's substance behind the categories. If the church uses it to get to people, I'm listening to a system that they have found works.

    MBTI is only useful if the test-taker honestly wants to know their personality type. I think most tests ask questions that make allowances for the fact that people have subjective perceptions of themselves. I'd see myself as calm, but I've been told I can be panicky.
    For people who aren't interested in discovering about themselves, there's more 'hostile witness' approaches like uClassify and IBM mood analysis, where you can paste chunks of their written texts to determine their mindset. But it's influenced by the emotions of the writer at he time, not to mention the topic. I'd say it's about as reliable as self-administered testing, in the right context.
     
  11. The Great Snook Gems: 31/31
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    This may be a topic for a new thread, but is a thread "why are many Asians so successful in America?" racist by definition, or was it the posts inside that were racist?
     
  12. Keneth Gems: 27/31
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    There's nothing inherently racist about that statement unless the reader chooses to interpret it as such, but it is the kind of thread where you'd be likely to find racist posts, regardless of what forum you were on. Personally, I don't really think it's a bad thing, but it's a slippery slope from racially biased discussion to full on flaming.
     
  13. henkie

    henkie Hammertime Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    There is indeed the issue of how people see themselves vs how others see them. One might perceive oneself to be a certain type, but others might think you are a completely different type. I tend not to think about these things much, but my standard response when I was younger was that they should ask my mother, who probably knows me better than I know myself.

    Another issue with taking these tests is, as you say, the mood of the test taker. In some moods, I'm likely to give another answer than in other moods, and likely I'd react differently in real situations as well, depending on my mood. That is the nature of different moods (and human behaviour, or even animal behaviour in general).

    For what it's worth, my wife once did this MBTI test at work and brought home some reading material, and I believe the one page description for INTP fit me the best out of all of them, though I may be remembering wrong and it was actually ISTJ or whatever.
     
  14. coineineagh

    coineineagh I wish for a horde to overrun my enemies Resourceful Adored

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    Of that deleted thread, I was only given my own written texts back, so I can only offer my retorts to the superiority claims. Which taken out-of-context, are pretty demeaning towards Asians. But they're responses to other deleted stuff I don't have. Suffice to say, they are opposite reactions to all the claims of superior racial intellect, financial success, educational excellence, profundity of thought, sophistication and manners. All of which I rip to shreds with personal experiences living in China for 3 years.

    It was a bait topic inviting racial stereotyping. Even allegedly positive racial stereotyping can become racist once it's held up as a claim of superiority. If a black person were to start a similar one titled "why do us black guys get so much white pussy?", then inevitably a group barge in chest-thumping about how much bigger black guys are, if you know what I mean, then it would be the same thing.
    If you try to debate the believer in stereotypes, you end up challenging core beliefs of many people. The thread probably got tons of complaint reports, and based on those, it got deleted at a point that the racist were thoroughly defeated already.
     

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